Posted on 12/25/2012 7:59:39 AM PST by SeekAndFind
Would N. T. Wright disagree with the bold statement? In my limited reading of his works, I doubt it. While he might disagree with the idea that entirety of hell is a literal lake of fire, IMO Wright would agree with Jesus' declaration that hell is a place of 'wailing and the gnashing of teeth' and he accepts it horrifying reality.
One thing I learned in the Federal Vision controversy of few years back - be very cautious when a critic restates his opponent's argument. Too often there is a straw-man argument in the making. While it is entirely possible that N. T. Wright is wrong on this issue, I'd like to see more of his position laid out before I'd rush to judgment.
Agreed. I saw very little quoted by Wright himself in the above piece, and I can’t help thinking he has a lot more than that to say about it, especially if this guys ire seems to be raised by it. If these slim selection of quotes are all he’s ever said on the topic, it’s almost not worth commenting on.
So God tortures people forever for what their mythological ancestors did, right?
Christianity is not just “unscientific” but insane and evil.
RE: So God tortures people forever for what their mythological ancestors did, right?
Where in the Bible does it say that?
About 1 hour 30 mins in, or 2 hours in for the hellish part.
July 1 - Shabbat Night Live with Michael Rood "The End and the Four Resurrections...
2:15 for the lake of fire and the average unbelieving Joe...
You wrote:
“So God tortures people forever for what their mythological ancestors did, right?”
Nope. Did you actually read the article?
“Christianity is not just “unscientific” but insane and evil.”
R-I-G-H-T. Christianity, which gave us hospitals, universities, the modern roots of science, philosophy, international law and human rights is “insane and evil”. R-I-G-H-T. Are you a product of a public school?
Remember you said that.
Calling a loving God evil is blaspheme.
Perhaps more horrifying isn’t that some churches never want to talk about hell but that some churches no longer want to talk about sin. There are congregations now that embrace sin - such as homosexuality or abortion. Some even want to march down the streets proclaiming their love for sin.
Before people can understand their “hell” problem, they must first understand their “sin” problem.
RE: 2:15 for the lake of fire and the average unbelieving Joe...
http://www.northforest.org/ChristianTopics/hell.html
EXCERPT:
Many people who reject Christianity object to the doctrine of hell, which they commonly think of as God’s judgment on unbelievers by eternal torture. They typically ask, “how can a loving God judge people (1) who weren’t properly informed, and (2) using a punishment that is so awful?” I agree that these questions are important. Two additional issues that are troublesome:
The punishment should match the crime, and
Since God is just, He would inform us ahead of time of the rules He is using.
Evangelical, fundamental Protestants typically respond to these objections by referring to John Calvin’s doctrine of Total Depravity — that we are so radically wicked to the core that God is just in judging us the way He does. Another common solution to the problems comes from the liberal Christian point of view in which the Bible is not taken to be a factual, historical book but is merely a collection of myths as well as spiritually useful teaching (I reject the view of liberal theology).
I generally agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church about the nature of hell. They teach that Hell is being alone, absolutely and forever, and is the eternal experience of ultimate meaninglessness and despair. The nature of the sufferings are twofold:
1. Pain of loss — from eternal separation from God.
2. Pain of sense — but not sadistic tortures, although the body will share in the punishment of the soul.
Main points:
1. Those in hell choose to be there with full knowledge of the consequences of their choice.
2. Hell is an expression of God’s love for those who reside there.
3. Final judgment of the wicked is not to punish them, but to judge which eternal home is suitable for them — heaven or hell.
4. Sinful deeds contain within them their own judgment and punishment. When people willfully choose to sin they are also choosing to break fellowship with God. The immediate effect of Adam’s sin (his sense of guilt and separation) demonstrates this.
What Hell is Not:
1. Hell is not eternal torture by burning (but hell is “eternal fire”)
2. Hell is not punishment as the just judgment for crimes committed against God (but hell is, rather, the result of the natural consequences of sin). More on this later.
3. Hell is not a place completely without God’s presence
4. Hell is not a place where the inhabitants “vex” one another
What Hell Is:
Hell is judgment for wickedness
Hell is the consequence of unrepented sin and wickedness
Hell is eternal separation from God and self-exclusion from communion with God
Hell is a just consequence by a loving and holy God
Hell is the eternal experience of the unredeemed sinner in the presence of the holy God.
Hell is punishment in the sense that the unredeemed wicked are not given the gift of righteousness
What is the “Fire” of Hell?
Note that the standard view of hell as eternal torture by fire is not supported by the Bible.
The image of hell as fire is figurative.
The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matthew 3:10)
If we interpret this literally we would have to believe that the wicked are annihilated, a view that I reject. Rather, this image is figurative and has a figurative meaning. The image concerns burning trash because it has no usefulness.
Hell is therefore a place where those who don’t bear spiritual fruit (who reject God) are discarded from God’s plan and purpose. It doesn’t say that they are burned in eternal hell fire — taking the image of fire as literal results in annihilationism, not eternal torture.
The image of fire refers to God testing what we are made of, not to eternal torture.
His work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. (1 Corinthians 3:13)
The fire which consumes the wicked is the same thing as judgment. In other words, fire = judgment, not punishment.
Only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Hebrews 10:27)
If we take the image of fire literally we have annihilation because fire consumes by annihilating, not by eternal torture.
In the following passage the word punishment refers to judgment by death because the wicked in these towns were judged by being killed. Their example is that God judges wickedness, not that He tortures them forever in hell.
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)
Everlasting destruction is an oxymoron. Once something is destroyed it is gone and you can’t destroy it anymore.
Everlasting destruction refers to the results of God’s judgment of the wicked and what becomes of them. It does not imply eternal torture.
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power. (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)
I think hell is the absence of God. An atheist may not believe in Him, but he still benefits from God’s presence. At death, after having had every chance to know Him, God removes Himself completely from that person, leaving him tormented when he finally realizes he’s rejected God’s love. If you doubt this, ask God. If He’s real, He’ll answer you. If He isn’t, you haven’t lost a thing.
Dear S&F, I noticed that the pastor does not site which of N.T. Wright’s many worthy books he drew the quotation from, and thus enabling us to get the entire context. From my readings of Wright, he had mentioned the “American” belief in a (my paraphrase) “Fire and brimstone version of Hell.” A version that I associate with the 19th century and especially Baptist and Holy Roller churches of my youth in the 20th century. It sounds like the pastor/writer of this article is of that vein of belief.
I don’t envision Hell as litterally fire and brimstone,which is more of a description of the burning trash pits at Gehanna, where the aborted children and unwanted new borns were tossed to be disposed of by fire.
To me, Hell is being denied the presence of Jesus and His Father. There is a spiritual realm of evil to which souls of those who practice evil go and it is to those whom Jesus also offers his sacrifice for the forgiveness of their souls as well as ours, only if they ask for it.
As it is, N.T. Wright is one of my favorite writers and teachers of Christianity. I have also found the volumes on Jesus by Pope Benedict XVI worth reading and pondering. And the Pontiff’s volumes are quite readable and understandible, as are Wright’s.
Whether "lakes of fire" or whatnot are metaphors or to be understood literally is not very important; someone who thinks eternal separation from God would be somehow more tolerable if no lakes of fire are involved is missing the whole point of the exercise.
Dear S&F, thank you for your post #11. I, a Protestant, am thus more in line with the Roman Catholic view stated by the author.
Very well said.
Seems like your eternal fate is strongly correlated with where you were born.
This could be a useful link for you to explore:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism-the-unevangelized-and-cultural-chauvinism
TITLE: Molinism, the Unevangelized, and Cultural Chauvinism
So why have billions of East Asians chosen to be in hell and only a handful chose to be Christian?
Slow learners?
Or, to put it another way, why don't you allow for the possibility that Perfect Love and Infinite Intellect is not going to find human ignorance to be much of an obstacle?
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