Posted on 02/07/2013 12:06:49 PM PST by Alex Murphy
U: By far, the most uttered complaint against election is that it’s not fair. And yet, every Christian acknowledges they don’t deserve God’s mercy and His salvation – that it’s “fair” if God chose to judge all sinners as being unworthy of spending eternal life with Him. That being the case why is it considered repugnant if God chooses to show mercy to some and allows His justice to fall on others who willingly continue in their sin? Would a governor be considered an ogre and unfair simply because he/she decided to grant amnesty to one criminal while others are left to carry out their proper sentence? Those who reject election believe in choice, but they don’t want God to choose; they want humanity to choose instead. This seems more fair and just to them.
L: …“Now, who is it that limits of the death of Christ? Why, you - you say that Christ did not die so as to infallibly secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon. When you say we limit Christ’s death we say no my dear sir it is you that do that. We say that Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number who through Christ’s death not only may be saved but will be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.”
I: J. I. Packer sums up this doctrine in a very succinct manner when he says, “Grace proves irresistible just because it destroys the disposition to resist.” A passage in Acts showcases this efficacious call of God in action: “And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled. A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. ” (Acts 16:13–14).
P: ...the fruit of the tree identifies the type of tree (Matt. 12:33). In no way does Calvinism teach that a person born again may continue in their rebellion, sin against God, and see eternal life with the Creator. Instead, reformed theology upholds just the opposite: that a true Christian will manifest holy affections that prove their salvation, although they will always struggle with the sin nature that they have (see Romans 7).
I don’t see where this addresses the problem in Calvinism of salvation by election instead of by grace through faith.
Quick question about Calvinism and its relationship to Puritanism - I vaguely remember reading that John Milton, by all accounts an archetypal Puritan, wrote a critique of the doctrine of Predestination. If that’s the case, how was he (and others like him in the Puritan movement) reconciled with Puritanism’s Calvinist roots?
Ephesians 2:8-10 (and note that Ephesians starts by discussing predestination, so this is in that context). Faith and grace are the gifts of God to the (elected) believer.
I think you're agreeing with my point. Faith and grace are conditional - determined by election. Therefore salvation is by election. No election, no grace, no faith.
However you may feel about its correctness, this is at odds with salvation by grace through faith.
Calvinism doesn’t seem to agree that all Scripture is useful for teaching, so most tend to ignore the passages they can’t just explain away.
Let me see if I can come ‘round it a different way, then: Reformed Theology declares that God is in control of all things - including who he chooses salvation for. The Ephesians passage declares that those elected are given these tools - grace/faith by a means that is irresistible... and salvation is the result. This is indeed salvation by grace (bestowed from God) through faith (also bestowed by God).
If you want to say this means that salvation is by election (by derivation), then so be it - Ephesians 1:4-5 suggest strongly that the election to salvation occurred before the creation. I don’t see that this changes anything since it all comes from the Father... it’s still consistent.
Election is the means that God uses to show his grace and to impart faith on the believer.
If you’re gonna throw around catch phrases, you could at least support the point with something worthy of discussion.
At best, this is a gross mischaracterization of Calvinism; at worst, outright slander.
Thanks for your reply:
>>>If you want to say this means that salvation is by election (by derivation), then so be it..
I think it is obviously true for Calvinism.
For example, if I say a gunshot victim died due to loss of blood I am correct but incomplete in terms of cause. The real cause was the gunshot. Had the gunshot caused loss of blood or loss of oxygen or loss of brain function is irrelevant to the cause, these are conditional upon - not existing without - the gunshot.
This does not conform with non-Calvinist Christianity which teaches salvation by grace through faith.
The fundamental problem with reform theology in general and Calvinism in particular is that there is little room for the concept of a loving God, and that fundamental moral transformations in individuals are probably not possible at best and futile at worst.
Neither--it is experience right here on these forums.
If you believe that God picks a subset of humanity to save then logically you believe that God created the rest for the specific purpose of torturing them eternally in Hell.
Thanks for your reply:
>>”Election is the means that God uses to show his grace and to impart faith on the believer.”
I really don’t follow. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but are you saying that those that respond to His grace with faith, God elects?
If so, then I don’t think your view agrees with Calvinism.
If you believe that God waits for people to decide whether they will accept Him or not, then you believe that God is not omniscient and omnipotent, and therefore not God.
That statement is not logical. The conclusion does not follow from the premise.
No, I’m saying that those that God elects will respond to His grace (irresistible grace) by the faith that is given to them by the Holy Spirit.
It's His grace that bestows faith.
Thus, His grace causes faith to be operational; salvation by grace through faith is correct.
Thanks, that is consistent with Calvinism; however it describes salvation by election.
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