Posted on 02/23/2013 1:20:54 PM PST by District13
Blasphemer!
“Gamaliel may have been wise in some things, but he was wrong there. Again, why have Islam, Scientology, etc. prospered? If Gamaliel had been right, they would never have gotten off the ground. So that right there lets me know that no, He wasn’t inspired by God at that moment.”
Saint Paul would no doubt disagree with you about Gamaliel since he saved Paul’s life. Scientology and Islam have nothing whatsoever to do with our Savior Jesus Christ so it’s not really fair to throw them in there.
Have a good night.
That says it all, mormomism does not either.
“How sad that you actually think you know the heart of another.”
I don’t know the heart of another. I know God’s Holy Scriptures. Mormonism is a collection of condemned heresies and New Age beliefs. Not Christian.
It makes no sense to me.
I used to be a Lutheran and even then I never really understood it. It still blows my mind as to how Jesus can be fully God and fully man.
I have tried to understand it but it still confuses me.
Wasn’t it the Holy Spirit the one who impregnated Mary with Jesus? That would mean he was created.
“Jesus Christ is my Savior”
Which “Jesus Christ”?
The mormonic false Christ that was created as a spirit being, came to earth to get a body and later became one of the Four Mormon Earth Gods...
Or the Biblical Eternal Christ, who was neither created nor made?
Which do you mean.
“Even here you fail to understand how God was able to use persecution in that time.”
I have read the Book of Acts and I know that humble Luke wrote it. I read about Paul’s persecutions and troubles. I also know that Heavenly Father used Gamiliel to save Paul’s life and I am grateful for Gamiliel’s wise counsel.
Note: This article is about the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in these latter days but as usual a few disgruntled folk have turned this thread into a silly squabble over nothing.
Good night.
And yet you still don't acknowledge that as of Acts 5 (the Gamaliel passage you cited) had absolutely NOTHING to do with Paul being persecuted...given that Paul was still Saul (a persecutor) as of that point???
ALL: When Elsie & others point out the lack of humility amongst prideful "I'm-on-my-way-to-godhood" Mormons, here's a keen example: They can't admit they are wrong on even basic facts.
Good night
When they've been flat out shown to be wrong, they run...
Good night
When they’ve been flat out shown to be wrong, they run...
.............................
It isn’t a growing problem. It’s a going problem.
Ya know, I've watched a few of those TV shows where the big boss of a company goes "undercover" and assumes a menial job to work alongside specific employees. Then comes the big "let's take off the job mask" portion of the show; he commends an employee, who receives certain benefits at that point.
How can a company boss be such a menial employee?
Simple. The Boss -- in this case THE L-RD - can do what he wants!!!
(Catherine, offer District13 $1,000 if he can prove from the Bible that Paul was saved by Gamaliel in Acts 5).
District13, the ONLY time Paul (or Saul) and Gamaliel are mentioned in the same New Testament chapter was Acts 22:
“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today." (v. 3)
Paul, as Saul, studied under Gamaliel to be zealous for the law. And Paul/Saul was NOT being persecuted by ANYBODY during Gamaliel's comment cited by District13 in Acts 5. (He had YET to convert & wasn't even a Christian at this point)
Which “Jesus Christ”? The mormonic false Christ that was created as a spirit being, came to earth to get a body and later became one of the Four Mormon Earth Gods... Or the Biblical Eternal Christ, who was neither created nor made? Which do you mean. [AMPU, post #67]
There's some things we as Christians actually agree with Lds leaders in their general premises:
While at the same time, as AMPU has indicated, Mormonism has distorted the one True Jesus and twisted Him into an entirely different Being!
But District13 -- and MILLIONS of Mormons like him -- indicate they are clueless as to why they've embraced "another" Jesus altogether...just as the apostle Paul said there was "another" Jesus (2 Cor. 11:3-4).
If a 'counterfeit' person was using your name online -- and has some attributes similar to you -- does it make it 'you' if it's 'close enough?'
| Mormon Leader General Premises about 'Jesus' we actually agree with! | Summary or Scriptural Summary |
| LDS "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie essentially answered the question before the development of the Internet world: "A false Christ is NOT a person. It is a false system of worship, a false church, a false cult that says, 'Lo, here is salvation, here is the doctrine of Christ. Come and believe thus and so, and ye shall be saved.' It is any concept or philosophy that says that redemption, salvation, sanctification, justification, and all of the promised rewards can be gained in any way except that set forth by the [LDS] apostles and prophets." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man, p. 48) | You know, there actually are times we agree with the general premises (but not specific applications) of Mormon leaders like Bruce McConkie! And, even though McConkie was referencing all those outside of Mormonism --ya gotta understand that the Lds church teaches that their church is "the only true and living church on the face of the earth" (Lds Doctrines & Covenants 1:30-- what McConkie says does apply to false systems, false churches, and false cults! |
| Therefore, citing Mormon leaders above & below: How important is it that people don't "misunderstand" who Jesus is? | The New Testament discusses 'another Jesus' (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)...2 Cor. 11:4 -- "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached..." |
| Per this BYU prof, 'tis very important we don't 'know' another Jesus! "There is NO SALVATION in false doctrine, NO REDEEMING POWER IN MISUNDERSTANDING ABOUT JESUS CHRIST." (BYU associate professor W. Jeffrey Marsh, "Doctrine of Christ restored to the world," Church News, Jan. 3, 2004, p. 6) | 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Jesus, Matthew 24:23-24) |
| Per Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: * "There is no such thing as gaining salvation from a false god, or by conforming to a false plan of salvation, or through membership in a false church." (Lds Official magazine Ensign (Conference edition), "The Caravan Moves On," Nov.1984, p. 83) *"There is no salvation in believing any false doctrine, particularly a false or unwise view about the Godhead or any of its members. Eternal life is reserved for those who know God and the One whom he sent to work out the infinite and eternal atonement." ("Our Relationship with the Lord," in Fireside and Devotional Speeches, 1981-82 (Provo: BYU Press, 1982), p. 97 -- this quote republished in official Lds curricula publication in 1983, 1986, Come unto Christ: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1984/1988, p. 45) * "True and saving worship is found ONLY among those who know the truth about God and the Godhead, and who undertand the true relationship men should have with each member of that Eternal Presidency." ("Our Relationship with the Lord," in Fireside and Devotional Speeches, 1981-82 (Provo: BYU Press, 1982), p. 97 -- this quote republished in official Lds curricula publication in 1983, 1986, Come unto Christ: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1984/1988, p. 45) |
"And this is life eternal, that they might know knee THE ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (Jesus, John 17:3) [Even Lds "Doctrines & Covenants has 'stolen' a similar saying:] "This is eternal lives--to know THE ONLY wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent..." (D&C 132:24) |
Bottom line to above: Mormons might have you believe that embracing "any ole' Jesus" will do...
But you know what?
...The five quotes above -- four from an Lds "apostle" who had the temerity to write a book called "Mormon Doctrine"...
...+ a BYU prof...
...All don't agree with such an assumption...
Well,G-d said differently in the Torah which is the FINAL word of G-d.
Which “Jesus Christ”? The mormonic false Christ that was created as a spirit being, came to earth to get a body and later became one of the Four Mormon Earth Gods... Or the Biblical Eternal Christ, who was neither created nor made? Which do you mean. [AMPU, post #67]
I want to post another chart as well...allow me to briefly summarize its content:
The traditional Christ within Christianity is...
* ...uniquely THE ONLY begotten Son from eternity past, not one of millions of God's pre-existent "sons";
* He is uniquely Savior, not one of millions of saviors per Mormondom;
* He is uniquely Creator and divine and self-existent from eternity past, not one of MILLIONS of men who are somehow likewise "self-existent" from eternity past;
* His blood is uniquely powerful beyond men's commandment-keeping -- lest the promise Jesus made to the thief on the cross become a false prophecy;
* His blood is potent enough to cover ALL sins, unlike the Mormon Jesus who leaves men to "make up" for anemic blood via their own "blood atonement."
* He absorbed God's wrath vs. the Book of Mormon violent Jesus who took out His wrath upon thousands of residents in alleged 16 Book of Mormon cities! The violent Mormon Jesus sunk, entombed, and otherwise destroyed perhaps up to 90,000 upon His death on the Mormon cross! The Bible knows no such horrific crucifixion aftermath fairy tales...
Which “Jesus Christ”? The mormonic false Christ that was created as a spirit being, came to earth to get a body and later became one of the Four Mormon Earth Gods... Or the Biblical Eternal Christ, who was neither created nor made? Which do you mean. [AMPU, post #67]
Note: For documentation as to showing "proof" for these answers below, see the next (last) chart.
| Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' Jesus from Jesus of Bible | Mormon 'Jesus'? | Based upon what Lds 'scripture' | Jesus of Bible? | Relevant Scriptures |
| 1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past? | Lds say NO -- unless Lds want to claim that men also are 'self-existent' from eternity past: "Man was also in the beginning with God." (D&C 93:29); yet they de-emphasize their own "scripture" -- Alma 13:9 in the Book of Mormon, where it reads how Jesus was "the only begotten without beginning of days" | D&C 93:29 vs. Alma 13:9. Note: In Joseph Smith's "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," he also elaborated upon a "council of gods" who were before Heavenly Father; and how Heavenly Father himself had a "father" and grandfather. | YES | John 8:58; John 1:1,18; Micah 5:2; Ex. 3:14 |
| 2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ NOT linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, as Mormons interpret it, but rather to the Son of God being the pre-eminent heir and creator of all things? |
NO |
D&C 93:21 -- introduced 1833...not found in Book of Mormon | NO | Col. 1:15-18; Eph. 6:12; Ps. 80:27 |
| 3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')? | YES | "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269). | NO | Col. 1:16 |
| 4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past? | NO | "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68); * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95) | YES | 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:22 |
| 5. Was Jesus always 'divine' from eternity past? | NO | * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323) | YES | John 17:5; Heb. 1:8 |
| 6. Was Jesus born "at" Bethlehem? | NO (Jerusalem) | Alma 7:10, Book of Mormon | YES | Micah 5:2 prophesy; Matt. 2:1; Luke 2:4,15; John 7:42 |
| 7. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?" | YES | "Christ is a saved being” (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257); * "Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72] | NO | 1 John 4:14; John 4:42 (THE Savior, not the saved!) |
| 8. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many? | YES and NO (Lds contradicts themselves) | LDS: NO: D&C 76:1, 1832; changed 1834 in D&C 103:9 & expanded to save the dead in 1841-1842 (D&C 124; D&C 128:1-3, 17-18...esp. v. 18); also Lds cite Obadiah 21 in the Old Testament as some sort of "justification" for applying "saviors" (plural) to themselves -- alleged "saviors" of mankind via baptisms for the dead! | NO | "THE Savior" in 1 John 4:14 and John 4:42, not saviors plural; also, in 1 Cor. 15:29 which Mormons have hijacked as their own -- the apostle Paul says "they" -- not "we" -- practiced baptism for the dead; also Obadiah 21 has NOTHING to do with baptizing the dead! |
| 9. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane? | Lds say YES | Lds misinterpret blood sweat in garden of Gethsemane as Jesus was praying as having "effect of atonement" (see official Lds magazine Ensign, for example: June 2007, p. 15) | NO | Col. 1:20; also Jesus never said "pick up your 'garden' and follow me" but said, "pick up your 'CROSS' and follow me" |
| 10. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death? | YES | 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12, esp. 8:23; 9:12, Book of Mormon | NO | Jesus became sin (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24) and became a curse (Gal. 3:13) on behalf of all, absorbing God's wrath on our behalf |
| 11. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature? | NOTHING CONCLUSIVE: Lds "scriptures" are all over the map on this one: Mormonism teaches that (a) children have no sin nature & "cannot sin until they begin to become accountable" (D&C 29:47) -- even tho the Lds Pearl of Great Price teaches that children are conceived in sin (Moses 6:55), which "jives" more with Psalm 51:5 and 58:3; (b) yet the Book of Mormon teaches that men have a "carnal and fallen state" and that unless "they become new creatures...unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God." (Mosiah 27:26)...adding in v. 25 & elsewhere in the BoM that they "must be born again"; but apparently that was all past tense in the pre-incarnational years of Jesus Christ, because Joseph Smith taught how Jesus redeemed men from the fall, making men "innocent before God" (D&C 93:38)...so men are "innocent" before God? (Oh, sure, that explains today's world "nicely") | Article of Faith 2: "All men will be punished for own sin." | BOTH | 1 John 1:7-9; Romans 5:8-9 |
| 12. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels? | YES | Even tho a few Mormon "scriptures" emphasize the cleansing power of Christ's blood (see, for example Alma 7:14; D&C 76:41; Moses 6:59), Mormonism roots this in law-keeping (D&C 76:52) | NO | 1 John 1:7; Rev. 1:5; Rev. 5:9; Rev. 7:14; Heb. 13:12; Heb. 10:19; Eph. 1:7; Rom. 5:9 |
| 13. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be? | NO | a: D&C 93:29; b: Moses 3:5; 6:36; Abraham 3:22-23, Pearl of Great Price; c: See references in #7; d: Misreading of Obadiah 21, Old Testament; e: Note references to "gods" as if true plural gods existed: D&C 76:58; D&C 121:28; 132:20,32,37; Moses 4:11; Lds also cite Spring 1844 King Follett sermon from Smith as if "revelational" -- how people have to "become gods themselves"; f: D&C 20:19 -- Only being to be worshiped is God, yet Mormons don't regard Jesus as same "being" as Heavenly Father | YES! | John 3:18: The "Only" Begotten Son from eternity, not one "spirit son" begotten in the pre-existence among millions! |
| 14. Can Jesus be prayed to directly? | NO, all Lds prayer is to Heavenly Father, but can be directed through Christ | No Lds "scripture" to back this up; in fact, Lds "scripture" states the opposite! (see 3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26) | YES! | Acts 7:59 |
Which “Jesus Christ”? The mormonic false Christ that was created as a spirit being, came to earth to get a body and later became one of the Four Mormon Earth Gods... Or the Biblical Eternal Christ, who was neither created nor made? Which do you mean. [AMPU, post #67]
| Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible | Mormon 'Jesus' | Jesus of Bible |
| 1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past? | NO: Lds say ALL "intelligences" -- including Jesus -- existed (D&C 93:29) before becoming a "spirit" child born to a divine goddess on a planet near Kolob; yet Joseph Smith could not even keep his story straight here, giving a "revelation" in 1831 that "from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ" (D&C 39:1) + Alma 13:9 talks about the "only begotten without beginning of days" I openly dare LDS to forthrightly exegete Doctrine & Covenants 39:1, which says: Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ.... What does "from all eternity to all eternity" mean? "The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal & exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." Smith, p. 210 [TofPresidents of the Church] | YES: Bible: Before Abraham was, "I AM" (John 8:58) ["I AM" is a divine Name first introduced in Exodus 3:14 and means, "The Self-Existing One"...THE Jesus is self-existent and didn't need a "mom god" on a planet near Kolob to "progress" in His life. Mormons flat-out deny the teaching found in John 1:1, 18 and Micah 5:2, because they claim Jesus was part of a past creation process – (obviously if Jesus’ Mormon “father” was once a man, then Jesus was at some point “less” in stature at that “time”) * "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us [Jesus]" (Jn. 1:1,18). * ”But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2) |
| 2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, or to Christ as pre-eminent heir and creator of all things? | The Firstborn "spirit" of many born spirits on a planet near Kolob; the 'Mormon Jesus' at his "spirit birth" was only "more special" at his "spirit birth" than you or me only because He was the "firstborn" | In Hebrew culture, the firstborn = "heir"...Jesus was not the "first" to be born...though Paul also adds in Col. 1:18 Jesus was the "firstborn of the dead" -- the first to rise from the dead. Colossians 1:15-16 explains this Jesus as "heir" -- "firstborn" -- as this Greek word meant pre-eminent -- or has first right over all creation...Psalm 80:27 demonstrates this idea of priority of position as Col. 1:16 says Jesus is creator of all, all things were created for Jesus (cf. Hebrews 3:4) |
| 3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')? | YES "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269 implying that "Christendom" postulates a "mythical Christ" because we say Jesus is "uncreated" -- and part of a "triple unity" with the Father and Holy Spirit). | NO: 16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16) |
| 4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past? | NO: "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68; cf. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153) * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95) | YES: "He made Him WHO KNEW NO SIN to be sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); Christ "did no sin" (1 Pet. 2:22) |
| 5. Was Jesus always divine from eternity past? | NO: * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323) | YES: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, John 17:5); ...unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (Heb. 1:8) |
| 6. Was Jesus born "at" Bethlehem? | NO: "...he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem..." (Alma 7:10, Book of Mormon) | YES: Actual Jesus born IN Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1) not "at Jerusalem" Was Jesus born "at Jerusalem"? |
| 7. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?" | YES: The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72] | NO: I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42). |
| 8. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many? | YES: The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?... Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870); cf. how Mormons name themselves as "saviors" -- numerous citations: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? | NO: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14); "They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world.” (John 4:42) |
| 9. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane? | YES: * "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood more so than on the cross." (BYU Professor Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! ABible! p. 282) * "It was there [Gethsemane] that the Savior paid the price for all the sorrows, sins and transgressions of every human being who ever lives or ever will live." (Seventy -- Second Quorum -- Wolfgang H. Paul, "Gratitude for the Atonement," Ensign, June 2007, p. 15) | NO: This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims in Col. 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of the cross..." |
| 10. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death? | YES: Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith talked about "...a period of darkness at the death of Christ... "greater period of darkness and terrible punishment came upon the people in the Western Hemisphere because of their extreme wickedness..." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 45, Deseret Book Co., 1960) Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23) NOTE: Please read 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12 for entire picture of overwhelming destruction caused by the Mormon 'Jesus': Cities were supposedly all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)...All told, upon the Mormon jesus' death, he supposedly unleashes punishment. He levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people! [Note: Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible!] Yes, there was judgment on the cross! Yes, it was terrible! But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross! The sad result is that too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder a tremendous aversion to the cross exists among Mormons due to Joseph Smith's version of post crucifixion events! |
NO: The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10), to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10), and to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5) |
| 11. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature? | NO: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN) The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."] The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency." | YES, BOTH: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Other Biblical verses rejected: 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:24; Heb. 1:3 |
| 12. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels? | YES: Although the Book of Mormon makes some solid statements about Christ's powerful atoning blood (see, for example Mosiah 3:18), Mormon leaders wind up accusing Jesus of having rather anemic blood; yes, Lds "scriptures" highlight His blood as one which cleanses from unrighteousness (Alma 7:14, Book of Mormon; D&C 76:41, Doctrines & Covenants; Moses 6:59, Pearl of Great Price) -- unfortunately such ultimate cleansing is rooted solely on ability to keep commandments: "That by keeping the commandments, they MIGHT be washed and cleansed from all their sins." (D&C 76:52). Other related statements to diluting cleansing power of Christ's blood: * "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135-136) * "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! * "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation. Many go so far, for instance, as to pretend, at least, to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. His blood, without other act than mere belief, they say, makes us clean." (Lds Tract titled, "What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 31) * "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants" (Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, 3:247) | NO: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7); "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5); "... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."(Rev. 5:9); "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14); "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Heb. 13:12); "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus..." (Heb. 10:19); "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph. 1:7); Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9) |
| 13. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be? | NO: Due to unique Lds doctrine that (a) we were all eternal; (b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus; (c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation"; (d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people; (e) all temple Mormons become gods. (f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship. The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!) | YES: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of THE ONLY begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Jesus is either "the ONLY begotten Son" from eternity -- not one of MANY begotten spirit sons in some pre-existence -- or He is not unique; and if Lds say "begotten" references such new "condition" Jesus acquired upon conception in Mary's womb, how is it that Jesus suddenly became a Son and the Father suddenly became a Father -- unless it's true that Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie & Lds "prophet" Brigham Young taught that the paternity was a literal one -- that the Father came down and had sex with Mary!!! |
| 14. Can Jesus be prayed to directly? | NO: Yet... “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God…when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him…And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.” (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26, Book of Mormon) | YES Stephen, Acts prayed directly to Jesus! While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59) |
Well, let's review the Torah, shall we?
When Jacob wrestled with Someone in Genesis 32, who was that?
In Genesis 48, who is referenced there as "my shepherd" and as "the Angel who has delivered me from all harm?"
Who is the preeminent son of Judah reflected in Genesis 49? -- particularly the ruling "son" for whom "the obedience of the nations is his?" (Gen. 49:10)
Furthermore, Jewish tradition from Exodus is that on the Passover day, the Messiah would save God's people. Has this been fulfilled?
I merely state that you have a great dedication to intolerance, distortion and smearing of other “Christians” with whom you do not agree.
You are Mormon not Christian. To be of the same faith, you must believe in the same god. You do not believe in God the Father, GOD the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Why do Mormons feel the need to try and call themselves Christian instead of what they are; Mormon? If you really believe something (as wrong as you are) prove it by admitting who you are and not pretending to be something you are not.
John
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
Forgot to add verse 14
I merely state that you have a great dedication to intolerance, distortion and smearing of other “Christians” with whom you do not agree.
You are Mormon not Christian. To be of the same faith, you must believe in the same god. You do not believe in God the Father, GOD the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Why do Mormons feel the need to try and call themselves Christian instead of what they are; Mormon? If you really believe something (as wrong as you are) prove it by admitting who you are and not pretending to be something you are not.
John
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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