Posted on 02/28/2013 6:52:42 AM PST by Gamecock
And those who don't believe in the Holy Trinity, and those who believe in salvation by election and those who believe in more than one baptism, or, etc.
Thus what you need to concede is that sola ecclesia has
That'd be hard since there's no such thing as the doctrine of "sola ecclesia" . :)
If you cannot concede this, then we might as well be done with this.
I think we have reached an impasse. I sincerely thank you for your courteous discussion. God bless...
Irrelevant, as universal or comprehensive unity is not what is being argued, as sola ecclesia does not produce this either.
That'd be hard since there's no such thing as the doctrine of "sola ecclesia" . :)
I see requiring a formal doctrine under that name, and which Catholic apologists have recognized as valid and defended it, as denying reality.
I think we have reached an impasse. I sincerely thank you for your courteous discussion. God bless...
And thanks for the civility also. 2Tim. 2:25
I don't think who Christ is, soteriology, etc. are irrelevant. I don't Paul did either, so this view is unscriptural as well.
as universal or comprehensive unity is not what is being argued, as sola ecclesia does not produce this either.
This is what I've been arguing all along. So I guess we were talking past each other.
as sola ecclesia does not produce this either.
This is again where I think you are agreeing with my point that sola scriptura is unworkable in terms of resulting in teaching one Lord, one faith, one baptism. It seems to me you are saying: "no it doesn't, but it doesn't matter." Which is a different argument.
thanks again...
You are not seeing this in context, which is that the minority dissent mentioned is irrelevant, as universal or comprehensive unity is not what is being argued, as sola ecclesia does not produce this either.
This is what I've been arguing all along. So I guess we were talking past each other.
Apparently. Both can produce a basic unity as well as see divisions. By Scriptural manifestation of the truth souls were persuaded by holy men, (2Cor. 4:2), and God will sort out the tares from the wheat.
Later
24 million is a healthy minority on Christology. The salvation by election branch is likely as large as the Arminian... Baptism? Lutheran or Baptists? Real Presence in the Eucharist?
And we are only talking about congregations and confessions, not even counting all the individual sola scriptura beliefs.
God will sort out the tares from the wheat.
What false belief does this exegesis not excuse?
You keep trying to use the fact that there are divisions and disagreements under SS besides unity in core beliefs, while under sola ecclesia and in Catholicism itself you have the same, the difference being a matter of degrees, while unity under the means of implicit assent to infallible church magisterium is not that of Scripture.
Even Arminans and Calvinist affirm core truths i mentioned, and souls are manifestly born under each, and can have wonderful fellowship in Christ (though some force unwarranted conclusions) and thus men like Wesley and Whitefield could preach in each others churches.
Do you think Rome itself is unified on predestination? The Dominican and the Jesuits attacked each other for years over it, and after twenty years of discussion public and private, and eighty-five conferences in the presence of the popes, the difference has not been resolved, and the pope could only require a truce. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregatio_de_Auxiliis)
Things which Catholics seem to imagine a comprehensive universal unity is the reality in Catholicism alone, not counting all sola ecclesia churches, but even with Rome Catholics can disagree on:
Which things Rome has spoken definitively on, or the extent; the infallible or non-infallible nature of multitudes of teachings, including in Trent, Vatican Two, and the catechism
How far Catholics can disagree in non-infallible teachings
Meanings of infallible or non-infallible teachings
How many levels Catholic teaching falls into and the hierarchy of truths
Whether the Pope is subject to Ecumenical Councils
How many verses of the Bible have been infallibly defined.
What degree of assurance the Imprimatur and Nhil Obstat provide
Whether the stories of Adam and Eve, Jonah and the fish, Balaam and the donkey, the conquests of Samson and Joshua, and other accounts are literally true
The meaning of inerrancy of Scripture
What the guidelines on interpretation mean and allow
Which Bible version is the most faithful to Catholic teaching
Whether the Vulgate has the same authority as they original text (Divino Afflante Spiritu, #17)
Whether or not 1Jn. 5:7in the Vulgate is properly Scripture
Whether approved notes in Catholic Bibles are sound
What Trent's affirmation of the Vulgate entails
Meanings of multitudes of Bible verses
Darwinian evolution vs not-Darwinian evolution and related
Geocentricity or Heliocentricity
How many bishops are necessary for this Collegial infallibility to be ensured?
What Extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Lumen Gentium really means (status of Protestants)
What the “subsits” in Lumen Gentium means, versus “is”
Whether all the anathemas of Trent still stand and what they entail
The role of "bishop" in apostolic succession
Who all the church Fathers are.
What the Fathers taught
What Tradition exactly is and means
Whether Tradition is the second of a two-part revelation (known as partim-partim), or if both forms of revelation contain the entirety of God's revealed truth.
What happens to unbaptized babies
What salvific merit means
What the distinction between contrition and attrition entails
Whether “not by works” refers only to the works done under the Law
What conditions for annulments mean
Whether the brethren of Mary were cousins or from Joseph via a previous marriage
Whether Mary was a dedicated temple virgin before her marriage to Joseph
How Mary physically remained a virgin
Whether the Ark of the Covenant prefigures Mary
Whether the term “Co-redemptrix” departs too much from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers, and whether Mary should also be called the Mediatrix of all Graces
Whether the Virgin Mary died and then was assumed or whether she was assumed before death
Who you can pray to in Heaven
Whether 1 Cor. 3:10ff is actually about purgatory
What the suffering of purgatory is
What mode of predestination is right - ie Molinism vs Augustinian
Other aspects of Predestination
Waging war and Capital punishment
The right of dissent based upon conscience
What mode of predestination is right - ie Molinism vs Augustinian
When a Catholic council first formulated its present canon
Whether the canon of Trent is the same as that of Hippo
Roman Catholicism's treatment of slavery
How to reconcile Roman Catholic teaching both advocating and censuring freedom of religion, torture, etc.
What charismatic practices are of God
What the CC means in stating that private revelations add nothing to what was publicly revealed up and through Christ
Many aspects of Eschatology
Whether private revelation can be
The place of political activism
Ecumenism, and how much fellowship with the Orthodox is good.
Things which Catholics can disagree on
Original sin
The contents of the Biblical canon
Purgatory
Original sin
Baptism of desire
Form of Baptism
Universal papal jurisdiction and supremacy
Papal infallibility
The nature of transubstantiation, and manner of reception
Allowance of Icons
Divorce and Remarriage
Faith and Reason
The Development of Doctrine
The Atonement
Whether the Catholic charismatic movement is to be allowed
Whether instruments are allowed in church
Clergy – qualifications/Priestly celibacy
What Tradition teaches
Church fathers (who they all are, and taught)
Dates of Feasts
The Church
Deification
The Holy Church Canons
The nature of the Sacramental Mysteries
The number of Sacraments
Beards
Various other practices
The Filioque; the Trinity
Immaculate Conception
The sinlessness of Mary
Evolution
Eschatology
Ecumenism
The new mass
Infallibility of canonizations
Who is primarily at fault for the Catholic schisms
Whether a pope would no longer be pope if he became a formal heretic, "Latae sententiae." or if he is the only person who can decide if he is an heretic or an apostate
Whether the pope is a validly elected pope or not.
Whether Vatican Two and many post V2 teachings deviate from official Roman Catholic teaching (which opens up a whole new series of things which Catholic can disagree on under sola ecclesia.
Then you have groups like the LDS, which also operate under the premise that the church is supreme, and effectively make their formal teaching and certain extraBiblical writings as equal or superior to Scripture, fostering as with Rome, implicit assent to what leadership teaches. And under which are found the most heretical doctrine.
Thus it remains that unity under both SS and SE can be realized to a limited degree, while disagreements and division also is seen, and that the unity seen in Scripture itself was not comprehensive doctrinal unity, and was based upon Scriptural substantiation, which requires division from those who teach for doctrines the mere tradition of men.
Calvinist double predestination is salvation by election - quite different that the Arminian view.
And I’ve noted the sola scriptura differences on Christology such as held by Oneness Pentecostals. Beliefs on baptism are quite variable as well. These I, and I think a reasonable observer, would term ‘core beliefs’ as the concern one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
I would note, again, that St. Paul did not think this a minor matter.
That’s a lot of leeway.
That’s quite a response to daniel’s lengthy post.
thank you..
Why thank me?
It was pathetic.
It didn’t address one point daniel made.
As I’ve done throughout, I’m staying on topic, not going mole whacking.
Unconditional election, but both can preach the same "gospel of your salvation," that shuts man up as damned + destitute (and unable to come to God unless the Father draws him), and thus the redeemed are those who repent and believe the simple gospel, trusting the risen righteous Lord Jesus to save them by His sinless shed blood.
And who confess that faith in baptism and following the Lord. The sermons in the book of Acts did not require much of the head, but a broken heart and contrite spirit, as the Lord saves such as believe on the Lord to save them.
And I’ve noted the sola scriptura differences on Christology such as held by Oneness Pentecostals.
So you again resort to this type of response even after i listed multitudinous disagreements in Catholicism. You continually note differences under SS (though the UPC and some others may be seen allowing personal revelation to be equal to Scripture in authority), while ignoring the differences under SE, even in Catholicism, and continue to miss the point.
Do you doubt me? Orthodox apologist and author Clark Carlton: “The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception precisely because they are untraditional.” Clark Carlton, THE WAY: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, 1997, p 135.
Vladimir Lossky, a noted modern Eastern Orthodox theologian, argues the difference in East and West is due to the Roman Catholic Church's use of pagan metaphysical philosophy (and its outgrowth, scholasticism) rather than the mystical, actual experience of God called theoria, to validate the theological dogmas of Roman Catholic Christianity. For this reason, Lossky argues that the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics have become "different men".[18] Other Eastern Orthodox theologians such as John Romanides[19] and Metropolitan Hierotheos[20][21] say the same
Roman Catholicism teaches, also, that, in the Age to Come, man will, with his intellect and with the assistance of grace, behold the Essence of God. The Orthodox declare that it is impossible to behold God in Himself. Not even divine grace, will give us such power. The saved will see, however, God as the glorified flesh of Christ
According to Metropolitan Hierotheos that because the Roman Catholic Church uses philosophical speculation rather that an actual experience of God to derive their theology they are lead into the many errors that Orthodox call into question about their theology including the filioque.[66]
And then you have sects as the SSPX, and also other SE groups that autocratically act like Rome, defining themselves as the one true church. And your assurance that Rome is that church is based upon the premise that she is infallible.
Again both SS and SE can show a basic unity across many groups while having varying degrees of disagreement on deeper levels of the same truths, as well as varying levels of disagreement on other issues, and formal divisions.
Thus the issue remains which is the Scriptural basis.
Only because that's the topic.
If you think Calvinist salvation by election is the same as all the others, you haven't spent much time on these threads... :)
The are a multitude of other heresies concerning who Christ is besides that of the Oneness Pentecostals - modalism. There are modern day sola scriptura adherents of Arianism, Nestorianism, Gnosticism and so on.
"staying on topic," meaning if SS does not produce "universal unity, nor that it results in comprehensive unity," then it makes it invalid, was not my argument. For i addressed the premise behind it (as did the Lord in answering questions), which is that their is an alternative that does produce universal unity and comprehensive unity, that being the church as supreme but which is clearly shown to be false. Both are limited in the scope and depth of unity they have produced, while also seeing divisions.
Thus whether the unity in the NT was based upon the premise of a perpetual infallible magisterium, or Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, Scripture being evidenced as the supreme transcendent material authority for obedience and testing truth claims, is the issue.
Then see above.
My argument only this thread started with and has always continued to be that sola scriptura is unworkable. It seems again that you wish a different discussion. Perhaps another time.
Thanks for your time and courtesy.
Yet the reasons for why you contend that is unworkable have been shown to be invalid.
Scripture is true and truth. Being God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired makes them authoritative by default. It’s inherent in their nature as the very words of God, regardless of whether everyone interprets them the same way or not.
Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not lie. Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Not much room for differences of interpretation, is there?
So what’s so hard to interpret correctly that renders Scripture as not being authoritative?
And just how does a difference in interpretation render it non-authoritative?
When it is the authority of the individual via sola scriptura. If everyone is an authority then no one is.
Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not lie. Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Not much room for differences of interpretation, is there?
One would hope not. But when it comes to who Christ is, salvation, baptism, the sacraments... there have been - and continue to be - many quite different interpretations of the same scripture.
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