Dear Christians: Do Stop Believin’

Of course I am aware of that, it's basic for Christians. I'm sorry you reject the truth of scriptures, the Word of God. And do not avail yourself of the wisdom and knowledge contained in the Bible. Unfortunately, being caught in the mindset that anyone that is not Catholic is a "prot" has, it seems, to have permeated your whole debate "skills" to the point that you fail to understand Christianity and what being a Christian is--as described in scripture, The Word, Jesus, The Word of God.

I hope for you to be fulfilled with Catholicism and all it's rituals and traditions to the point that Jesus can eventually open your eyes to His Truths.

Jesus is the truth, the Holy Spirit points the way.

1 Corinthians 1 v 18 –25: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

2 Thessalonians 2 v 10 - 12: And in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

2 Peter 1 v 16 - 21:
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 4 v 1- 2:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
Psalm 1 v 1:
Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers.
Isaiah 55 v 6 – 7:
Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Romans 3 v 23:
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

John 3 v 18:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 5 v 24:
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 14 v 23:
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Romans 10 v 9 – 10:
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Acts 16:30b,31 '…what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved…”'

The reason I rarely waste time with these discussions is that when I was a protestant I was not willing to listen to the truth until the Holy Spirit moved me. I have learned that most Prots have the exact same mind set. That is not a personal attack it is a simple statement of fact.

No, verga, it is NOT a "simple statement of fact", but your own biased view of what you think most Protestants' mind sets are. I could turn it around and say when I was a Catholic, I was not willing to listen to the truth until the Holy Spirit moved me. I was sixteen years old before the Gospel message sunk in to my heart and I received Jesus Christ as my savior and was born again. I remember plenty of times before then listening to Billy Graham's crusades on TV at my grandparents' house and I know he gave the gospel every time, as he always does. But my heart wasn't ready to hear the truth and, until it was, I wasn't willing to hear the truth either. I can only speak for myself, as you only can for yourself. We are commanded to speak the truth in love and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.

The crowd, while predominantly white, was Black, Latino, and Asian as well. And this similar scene happens daily worldwide in every parish that offers daily Mass (our in-town parish brings in a couple hundred daily). Why do you think they would make this effort to attend "every day"? For a symbol only?

I wanted to think over how to reply to you so that it did not appear to be a knee-jerk reaction. I cannot know the motives of anyone but myself, as can you. As to why people would "make this effort" to attend daily Mass and pray and bow in adoration before the Eucharist because they are convinced it is the literal body, blood, soul and divinity of our Savior, Jesus Christ, I can only say they have their reasons. Devout Muslims also pray five times a day facing Mecca, fast an entire month at Ramadan and, if you have ever watched the spectacle of the yearly Haj pilgrimage, where MILLIONS of them circle Mecca in Saudi Arabia:

you could ask them the same question. In fact, just about EVERY religion has devoted followers that worship, adore, love, sacrifice and believe every bit as much as those in your neck of the woods. I think you would have to agree that devotion among followers is not a sufficient reason or explanation for the reality or truthfulness of the object of devotion. It is also true that the presence of persecution is no barometer of truth, either. Shites are persecuted by Sunni, Hindus are persecuted by Muslims, Buddhist monks immolate themselves for their faith. It doesn't mean their faith is THE truth.

We need other ways to determine what is or isn't truth. How people have done things in the past is not always the best way. Fervency is not. Measure of devotion isn't either. Plenty of people have died for their faith but it doesn't make the object of their faith real or legitimate. Christians have the divinely-inspired Holy Scriptures that record the words of our savior and the pre-ordained prophecies that God revealed so that those who were looking for him would know how to identify him. God told us that this was one of the major ways that believers could know he was the true God. We have the historical record of Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead and we have the Holy Spirit within us to illuminate the words of God to our hearts.

This discussion began over the meaning behind the words of Jesus when he foretold of his death and the purpose of it. I believe he used words that those listening, and us today, could "get it" that he was giving his life - his physical body and very blood - as a sacrifice so that we could be redeemed. Unless one believes in him and receives the gift of eternal life through faith, the sacrifice will have no benefit for them. Jesus said whoever believes in him will never die but have everlasting life. This is the most important tenet of the Christian faith. Get that part wrong and no matter what one does for God will have no effect for them.

Yes! That's why they make the effort. Because the Eucharist IS Christ's Body. Here is a quote from Mother Teresa:

Through Mary, the cause of our joy, you discover that nowhere on earth are you more welcomed, nowhere on earth are you more loved, than by Jesus, living and truly present in the Most Blessed Sacrament... He is really there in Person waiting just for you.
What would you say about Blessed Mother Teresa's words? All saints agreed with her.

You believe the Eucharist is Christ's body because that doctrine developed over time and it is now what Catholicism teaches. I don't believe that "consecrated" wheat flour and water combination literally is changed into his body and, if anyone was really being honest, they would have to also agree that whatever change there is is a spiritual rather than literal one. You do understand the difference don't you? You cited the few Eucharist "miracles", as they are called, as your proof that the change is literal and my reply was that it shouldn't be exceptions that prove the rule.

Do I believe that Jesus had a real human body of flesh and blood? Yes, I do. I also believe that he gave that body and blood as a sacrifice for the atonement of our sins. When I participate in a worship service that includes the Lord's Supper communion service, I do so with the understanding that I partake because I have already received Jesus and I believe that he died for me. I AM eating his flesh and drinking his blood through faith - that is exactly what Jesus meant. The elements don't have to be changed into them every time because his sacrifice was ONCE for all time and doesn't have to be repeated again and again. We are born again by faith ONCE, it doesn't happen over and over again. I think Catholicism has perverted the truth of the purpose of the communion ordinance because they decided it was a "re-presentation" of the sacrifice and that those who partake MUST do so in order to have the sacrifice made efficacious again for sins just confessed prior to the Eucharist. They changed the observance from a remembrance of Christ - which is what HE said it should be - to a propitiatory act for an infusion of grace each time.

Sorry, this "saint" disagrees with Mother Theresa because the presence of Jesus is ALWAYS with us. We don't need to wait to adore him in a special ceremony or monstrance on an altar. He said he would be with us always.

You can choose to believe whatever you want about the Eucharist. So can I. I have reconciled what Scripture teaches and I believe it with all my heart. I have peace with God through Christ, my savior. Good night.

I don't believe that "consecrated" wheat flour and water combination literally is changed into his body and, if anyone was really being honest, they would have to also agree that whatever change there is is a spiritual rather than literal one. You do understand the difference don't you? You cited the few Eucharist "miracles", as they are called, as your proof that the change is literal and my reply was that it shouldn't be exceptions that prove the rule...You can choose to believe whatever you want about the Eucharist. So can I. I have reconciled what Scripture teaches and I believe it with all my heart. I have peace with God through Christ, my savior. Good night.

Regarding the Eucharistic Miracles, Christ is showing us He is [literally] present in ALL Hosts. And, just so I'm clear, I didn't cite the Eucharistic Miracles as MY proof (I converted before knowing of them), but there are doubters and Jesus responded (Miracle at Lanciano): "This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist."

I leave you with quotes from St. Faustina and St. Padre Pio: One thing alone sustains me, and that is Holy Communion…Jesus concealed in the host is everything to me. From the tabernacle I draw strength, power, courage, and light. Here, I seek consolation in time of anguish. I would not know how to give glory to God if I did not have the Eucharist in my heart. –St. Faustina Kowalska

Keep close to the Catholic Church at all times, for the Church alone can give you true peace, since she alone possesses Jesus, the true Prince of Peace, in the Blessed Sacrament. –St. Padre Pio

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?s=92f68af1abbaef80729bb20851d1eeb0&p=962849&postcount=2

38 posted on 3/15/2013 4:12:39 PM by SeekAndFind: “Is it not possible to disagree doctrinaly YET UNITED on MORAL ISSUES we agree with? For instance, when Obama forces religious institutions ( which will include non-Catholic Christian institutions ) to pay for abortificents, when the municipalities force Christians to pay for gay “spouses” and force boys scouts to accept gay scout leaders, CAN’T WE AS NON-CATHOLICS WORK TOGETHER WITH CATHOLICS TO FIGHT AGAINST THIS INFRINGEMENT ON OUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS?”

Absolutely. We need to distinguish between our doctrinal problems with Roman Catholics — which are significant and cannot be minimized and must prevent us from joining each other's churches, as well as many types of cooperation between evangelicals and Roman Catholics in the church sphere — and how we can, should, and in the modern American context probably **MUST** cooperate with Roman Catholics in the sphere of the state.

I wrote more on that here today: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3001542/posts?page=172#172

Key excerpt from my statements regarding Abraham Kuyper:

“Perhaps even more important, Kuyper developed a doctrine of ‘co-belligerence,’ one later adopted by men such as Francis Schaeffer and D. James Kennedy, which outlined the way in which strictly conservative Christians can and should maintain their doctrinal standards within the sphere of their own churches while cooperating in the sphere of the state with people in other churches, most significantly Roman Catholics, on areas where we can agree. That means I do not have to agree with Roman Catholic doctrine to work with a Roman Catholic in the pro-life movement, and the same goes for an orthodox Jew or even a secular conservative. That is a very, very important development in Christian political theology, and it laid the groundwork not only for Kuyper’s success in the Netherlands but also for much of the modern Christian conservative movement in the United States.”

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