Posted on 03/24/2013 7:29:58 PM PDT by Colofornian
(This was actually a reply to another thread but thought I'd re-post it as its own thread)
I think I was at least partially responsible for approximately 10 friends and my entire family (parents & siblings).
I may have lucked out but some things to note that I think helped me was:
1) I never came across as angry or bitter. I was always nice, friendly and self assured (but not arrogant or condescending)
2) They all knew I was a "good" Mormon so they were all very curious as to why I left when it wasn't because of being offended or sinning.
3) I did my research. I studied up on all the issues both pro & anti. I was able to intelligently convey to them the historical/doctrinal problems with Mormonisim that they weren't aware of.
4) I made it clear to them to them that it wasn't me trying to find an excuse to leave the church but my SINCERE desire for absolute truth which led me out. I started out reading anti books on my mission so that I would know how to DEFEND the church, but I gradually realized that most of the stuff was actually true and that the church couldn't really be defended. My eyes gradually were opened to the fact that the church may not be what it claimed to be.
5) I NEVER ARGUED with them about the issues with the church. I would share the information I learned, give my opinion, but never got in any kind of heated debate or let emotions get in the way. If they came up with some rebuttal, I would give mine and just say "I guess this is just how I see it." If they engage me long enough just the info I provide to them would begin to sink in even if they wouldn't admit it the time. Deep down they knew the things I was saying about the church couldn't be defended. I never "railed" against the church. I explained what things "bothered" me and made me "question" things, but I never came off as "attacking" the church. I would never use the word "cult." I would never call the leaders of the church names. I never used words like "evil." For example I would say something something like,
"I was very troubled by the fact that Joseph Smith would marry young girls and wives of other men. It just doesn't make sense TO ME why God would command this or tolerate it. I PERSONALLY don't believe this is something God would sanction."
instead of saying,
"Joseph Smith was a lying two timing adulterer and pedophile!"
In talking with Mormons, you have to start out slowly with them. You have to soften your words. Be careful not to put them on the defensive. Do NOT make it so they feel like they have to defend the church.
Once they start to grasp the magnitude of the problems, THEN you can start "telling it like it is." You just have to be careful to not come across as too "anti."
6) I never forced my beliefs or knowledge about the church on them. If they wanted to talk, I would share it with them, but I wouldn't "force my anti-Mormonism" on them. I was open and honest about what I believed, but only when they brought it up.
As many posters here have stated before, Mormons generally have to be "ready" for the truth. Many of my friends or family were active TBM's but they were struggling internally with some aspect of Mormonism, so they were more open to talking about the church and it ended up being easier for them to transition out (than say other more entrenched Mormons).
For the entrenched Mormons (I was actually one of them), they have to have the willingness to FULLY study the historical/doctrinal issues. Sharing with them, in just conversation, some "tidbits" of truth probably won't budge them, if they are hardcore. They would need to actually take the TIME and sit down and do some research and read about ALL the problems about the church. However most uber TBM's will get scared after a few pages and stop researching. Just a couple anti-Mormon arguments will merely put a dent in their armor, but if they are ACTUALLY willing to sit down and read a book like The Changing World of Mormonism by the Tanners, then I'd say they actually have very high probability of de-converting.
Are you saying you had no association with the LDS other than a distant relative used to be a member??
#2...I am an Evangelical Protestant.
That's kind of generic...do you attend a church or fellowship with a certain denomination?
Thank you for asking, Teppe.
From a book by Ron Rhodes, Commonly Misunderstood Bible Verses, Harvest House, 2008, p. 234:
"Are there three heavens? The Bible refers to three different heavens. The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere (Job 35:5). The second heaven is the interstellar universe (Genesis 1:17; Deuteronomy 17:3). The third heaven is the ineffable and glorious dwelling place of God in all His glory (2 Corinthians 12:2). It is elsewhere called the heaven of heavens and the highest heaven (1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6)."
“If you can de-convert a Mormon, then they weren’t a Mormon in the first place. A testimony is a personal revelation from God, not from some slick salesman. If a slick salesman got to somebody, they didn’t have a testimony at all.”
But the revelation of God is not an emotional warming of the heart, as in the Mormon “burning of the bosom.”
We know from scripture that the heart itself is very deceptive:
Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
God is a reasoning God, who calls us to understanding and repentance. Even though His logic is indeed higher than us, and His knowledge far greater and often incomprehensible, and His truths spiritually revealed, nevertheless these all take rational forms in our minds that have received them, and are not characterized by good feelings, but by awakened understanding.
Isa_1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
I call you to reason with me, to defend your religion’s claims, to deal honestly with the issues, not running from them with drive-by posts.
Where do you find polytheism in the scripture to justify Mormon belief? Do you know how one is actually saved according to the scriptures? Why do you deny the existence of hell as the scriptures teach them? Do you know that the Book of Abraham, which Smith claimed to translate word for word from the reformed Egyptian, has been translated by Egyptologists and has been found to be a standard Egyptian burial rite? Why is it Joseph Smith predicted New Jerusalem would be built by Mormons within his “generation” in Missouri, which not only was not built, but which contradicts the scripture which says that New Jerusalem will literally float down from heaven on a new Heaven and Earth at the end of the age?
Your soul is on the line, and these are not things you play with or fight over like we fight over politics or football teams. Come, let us reason together.
I have LOTS of current Lds relatives...PLENTY of associations with LDS -- both as CURRENT relatives; PAST relatives...and, yes, Lds friends & contacts!
That's kind of generic...do you attend a church or fellowship with a certain denomination?
Well, there's ALL kinds of Catholics...
Vatican-focused Catholics...non-Vatican focused Catholics...
Mary & saint-veneration Catholics...and non-Mary & saint-veneration focused Catholics...
Jesuit flavored Catholics...
Knights of Columbus Catholics...
Franciscan flavored Catholics...
Dominican flavored Catholics...
Paulists flavored Catholics...
Benedictine flavored Catholics...
Dozens of OTHER Catholic-orders flavored Catholics...
Liberal Democratic Catholics...
Etc etc etc...
And yet when FR posters "ID" themselves as "Catholic," we don't hear: "That's kind of generic...which brand of Catholicism do you most identify with?"
“I solemnly request that cease your blasphemy of the Holy Ghost and the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
The Holy Ghost certainly does work within us, but He does not move us towards error. I solemnly request that you cease blaspheming our God Jesus Christ, calling Him just another creation, a product of Elohim and a mother Goddess on the planet Kolob.
If you refuse, please show me from the scriptures where it is we ought to believe in polytheism or deny Christ’s divinity?
Ok try this ....
Jesus Christ said that he was the “Son of God”.
I’m sorry if I take the Bible literally and you take it figuritively.
I had always assumed you used to be in the LDS church and had repudiated it. I guess I was wrong.
And yet when FR posters "ID" themselves as "Catholic," we don't hear: "That's kind of generic...which brand of Catholicism do you most identify with?"
Hey I was just curious. I've seen that you've started plenty of threads in the religion forum but I've never seen you espouse your own views. Do you attend or fellowship with any group?
“Sorry Cherry
There is such a thing as revelation from God through the Holy Ghost.
As a LDS Mormon I’ve had probably a half dozen experiences where i know God approves of my service to him and my beliefs are acceptable to him.
Really? Want to have a contest like Elijah had with the prophets of Baal? I have had many experiences where my God has moved mountains to answer my prayers, showing me beyond any doubt that the hand of God is on my life. Not because I am so good, though. In fact, quite the opposite. Not because of my “good service.” Indeed, my service is terrible. Not because I am so righteous. Indeed, I am a wretch. But because my God is so righteous, because my God is so good, because my God is Just and Faithful even when I am unjust and unfaithful. Such is the difference between my God and yours.
So, want to have a prayer war, you and I? To see which one of us believes in the Living God? Give the challenge, and I shall pray that God answers it, whatever it is.
“What is your opinion of 2 Corinthians 12:2. Where Paul talks about a man caught up into the third heaven? Sounds surprisingly like LDS doctrine.
Thank you for asking, Teppe.
From a book by Ron Rhodes, Commonly Misunderstood Bible Verses, Harvest House, 2008, p. 234:
“Are there three heavens? The Bible refers to three different heavens. The first heaven is the earth’s atmosphere (Job 35:5). The second heaven is the interstellar universe (Genesis 1:17; Deuteronomy 17:3). The third heaven is the ineffable and glorious dwelling place of God in all His glory (2 Corinthians 12:2). It is elsewhere called the heaven of heavens and the highest heaven (1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6).””
It’s worth noting that the Hebrew word for “heaven” itself literally means “the heights.” Thus, the “highest heights” would refer to heaven itself.
OK here’s another answer to your earlier question...
John 17: 22
Christ is praying to God that all of his disciples may be one even as God and he (Christ) are one.
So stuff that in your nicene creed pipe and smoke it :)
Frequently in theological debate what one poster considers to be a fact, e.g. "Catholics worship Mary" another poster considers to be a damnable lie.
If you believe a statement is wrong, explain why without disparaging the other guy.
Discuss the message, not the messenger.
Click here for more guidelines to the Religion Forum.
I don’t particularly care about Ron Rhodes beliefs, but I do care about the Apostle Pauls.
Paul further described his understanding of the heavens in 1 Cor 15:40-43 By identifying the three heavens as the Celestian, Terrestial and Terrestial glories.
I don’t suppose that Mr. Rhodes made that correlation ... did he?
Personally, I find it much more interesting and informative to examine contradictions among various Mormon scripture. For example, in this SOURCE. The author provides numerous clear-cut examples with links directly to Mormon Scripture. Some of the examples include:
One wonders how the Latter Day Saints can possibly claim that their holy writings are divinely inspired and therefore unimpugnable when, in fact, they impugn each other.
“Ok try this ....
Jesus Christ said that he was the “Son of God”.
I’m sorry if I take the Bible literally and you take it figuritively.”
Well, I’m sorry that your exegesis of scripture consists of a single phrase. I actually do believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He’s also the second member of the trinity, as the scripture calls Him “Immanuel,” God with us:
Isa_7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
We are told quite explicitly that Christ is the Word, and the Word is both with God and is God. And that He created the heavens and the Earth, which we are told is what God did in the Old Testament:
Joh 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Gen_1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
We also know that there is only one God, so Jesus cannot be a second God.
Isa_44:8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
So, you’re move, Kimosabi.
Wow, second post bashes Catholics.
I think this has to be a record.
Did you get my response regarding John 17:22?
Christ wanted his Apostles to be one .... even as he and God were one?
So according your definition there must be one apostle in twelve and twelve apostles in one .... but never at any time only one, but never at any time only twelve .... neither dividing the substance ..... nor combining the substance ..... repeat ad nausem
You should read what Tertullian said about John 1:1-3 in “Against Praexeus”
In fact read the whole thing. Obviously Tertullian wouldn’t have survivied the execution purge the Theodosius established in the Eddict of Thessalonioca.
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