LOOK!!!
Over THERE!!!
Posted on 04/09/2013 4:52:50 PM PDT by Colofornian
On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church.
Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting. That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact. I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is. Grant told me: "I even find some of it hard to believe. But the report is a chance to shake the tree and see what will come of it..."
Here are some of the statements and claims, bulleted.
Most probable factual claims
Less probable factual claims
Highly speculative
Many of the speculative claims contradict some of the less probable or more probable claims. For example, if the GA never heard one of the apostles ever admit directly to him that they did not believe, then how could he know they talk amongst themselves about the falsity of the church? How could he know how they justify staying with their sure knowledge of its falseness? How could he know they get paid so much hush money? (Well, they could have talked about forgivable loans/gifts without referring to it as hush money.) How could he know they would rather die than to admit it’s false?
For these contradictory reasons, I have place some claims in the speculative group.
However, I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims.
1) an unnamed source who works with land development told me independently that properties are purchased by the LDS church for apostles through a developer named Ivory Homes LTD.
2) One such home is still listed under Ivory, but presumably will be possessed by Apostle David Bednar soon.
3) A COB employee who handles financial work has seen evidence suggesting payments made for the apostles and others are part of a loan they receive which have no payment schedules correlated (i.e., gifts disguised as loans).
4) MT’s current managing editor has said that Apostle Holland told him that as a new apostle he was at the “beck and call” of senior apostles who took up most of his time when he was a junior.
5) A current exmormon who was being groomed to be a general authority said he was told by a COB employee who worked with him that the employee’s number one role was to get the man “church broke” (the first time the man had heard that term).
6) a COB lawyer affirmed that all high level church employees and volunteers who have access to any financial information at the church sign non-disclosure agreements (NDA).
7) The NDAs are life-long binding agreements whose violations have strict civil penalties and can result in having any and all property used by the employee/worker/volunteer removed immediately; force repayment of all past and current considerations, benefits and perks retained or enjoyed by the employee; revoke any and all associations, contracts (book deals) or other financial arrangements owned, leased or facilitated by church companies; and potentially revoke academic or other honors bestowed upon the employee or family of the employee which are assigned to them through their association with church companies, universities or other institutions.
8) Reported by various persons (former members in public forums) is that family members of high-level authorities in the church receive many financial and vocational opportunities of employment or business dealings because of their father/brother/grandfather’s church ranking.
9) There is legal action occurring abroad against the church which may force the financial information to open further and reveal more about the truth behind these rumors. Stay tuned. (these things take time and legal funds.)
10) Grant Palmer and Tom Phillips have been informed that likely all general authorities receive their second anointing which is another covenant to keep loyal to the church and not reveal its secrets; though not as binding as a legal NDA, it is much like a fraternity of life-long business and political associates who pledge at Ivy League.
11) In June or July, there is rumored to be another foreign GA that will come forward and even in an interview disclose additional information on these matters. Stay tuned.
My thoughts... How likely is it that all the apostles are absolute doubters? Each of them individually may fall in the spectrum of deluded conned man or full-out evil conman. But to believe that they are all deluded says that every last one of them is ridiculously idiotic about the reality they are supposedly defending. Of course, on the flip-side, one can argue, if they're all evil liars, that's a difficult-to-believe conspiracy. Many will argue that such a conspiracy is unlikely to keep a lid on. Conspiracy is a bad word. This is a corporation with corporate trade secrets. These kind of secrets are kept all the time at the top of most large, diverse companies, with the knowledge compartmentalized with those having a need to know. Even CEOs do not know all the trade secrets of the company because such details are far beyond a single human capacity to know. The kind of deals and financial arrangements made in any corporation is held tight. Secrecy in other (government) organizations is obviously not compromised as well.
But is this a criminal conspiracy? Not to the Q12/first presidency.
First of all, these men do not actually control the finances of the church. They're at its mercy. Much of their adult lives have been spun up and dedicated into one system. They are running the front-face of a massive corporation. The machinery is beyond them. But the rock-stardom it gives them reaches far into their extended family. They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all.
They have a lot of perks. They have fans. They have trips. They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy. They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand. Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.
Not one of them is actually that talented at this late point in life in scriptural scholarship or academic studies. While they may not need it to write a church dismantling tome, they will need the credibility when one of them alone stands, as an old (potentially senile) man, against a unanimous quorum. Without significant credibility, charges of senility will absolutely ring true for 99% of members.
A single book deal exposing it will fall flat. The family of that man will be utterly disgraced. The business they built and reputation they have will be dismantled. Not the church.
Better to stay the course and slowly reform it without upsetting the family apple cart. I'll post more rumors here in this blog as they come to me in the next week...
LOOK!!!
Over THERE!!!
Such knowledge is amazing!
How can you make this CLAIM????
Oh...
Never mind...
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
Please provide where zerosix condemned you to hell.
I found nothing in what they said, that says what you said.
However, lds teaches this:
It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670)
Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270
“And the angel of God said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.”
- Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10-11
So when you say you worship Jesus Christ, just who is that?
Because according to lds, the Biblical Christ is not the christ of lds.
Please provide where zerosix condemned you to hell.
I found nothing in what they said, that says what you said.
However, lds teaches this:
It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670)
Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270
“And the angel of God said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.”
- Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10-11
So when you say you worship Jesus Christ, just who is that?
Because according to lds, the Biblical Christ is not the christ of lds.
Since there are fourteen versions of "the first version", which one do they beleive?
All doctrines, huh?
Even the ones that say if it were not for Joseph Smith there would be no salvation and the he will sit with the lds jesus to decide who gets to which celestial level? (Well, yes they do)
I agree. And as a corollary...
Any time I see writing by a Mormon I know that that is a “deluded” cult member, someone who has an ax to grind. Someone who has traded the objective knowledge and propositional truth of the Holy Scriptures, for personal experience, apart from facts, logic, or evidence. Yet they believe...
... They believe a civilization covered Meso-America from sea to shining see - full of vast metal works and millions of people and mythical creatures like cureloms. Despite there being no buildings, no foundations, no rusting metal, no curelom bones, etc. Why? They have feelings!... They believe Christ went on Spring Break to Meso-America to preach to indians - notifying them that they were really Jewish. Despite what we now know about genetic markers, they cling to this false belief. Why? They have feelings!
... They believe something created and non-eternal, can become God. Despite their ignorance of logic leaving them in the position of ignoring God's character as omnipotent (all powerful), and instead accepting the falsehood of lots of gods, of whom none are omnipotent. Still they believe. Why? They have feelings!
... They believe their God and Goddess breed in the heavens, rutting continually to produce an onslaught of spirit children to populate new worlds. Even worse, they have accepted that they have the potential to aspire to godhood, continually bedding goddesses and ruling over a planet of their own. Despite all the Bible teaches about the nature of God, it is swept aside to make Him into a creature. Why? They have feelings!
And then they show up to criticize former mormons who have seen the silliness of it all and left the morg. Why? These escaped mormons are to them as the little boy who shouted, "the king has no clothes!"
Rather than attacking them, perhaps mormons here on FR will kindly provide FACTS, EVIDENCE, or LOGIC to support any of their wild claims. I've personally asked for almost 10 years and have yet to see a single fact that supports mormonism. I've yet to see any logic of any position mormons hold. I've yet to see any evidence to support any mormon belief. Until that happens, they remain deluded, wearing secret underwear, caught in a prideful effort to prove their own worthiness before God, instead of coming to Him and accepting His Gospel of Grace.
Yet, it is when I or others point out what their own leaders have written or said that is in print, just not available in their own homes or if it is, they choose not to read it, they are shocked and offended, not at their leaders for hiding these statements from them but to me and others like me who try to bring the truth to them.
What is shameful is that their leadership went so far as to claim to be "Christians, too, just like other Christians," merely to gloss over the religious beliefs of Mitt Romney, when they teach just the opposite, that is shameful.
The LDS leaders and Mormon missionaries still teach that the other churches claiming to be Christian are "whores" and an "abomination to God," while at the same time telling nominal Christians that they are "just like them."
LDS missionaries wouldn't be running all over the U.S. trying to convert those nominal Christians to the church of Joseph Smith, if they believed in the biblical Jesus, just as I and millions of other Christians do.
Brigham Young, when telling of the Book of Genesis, in his Journal of Discourses says both that Adam is God and also the father of Jesus Christ!
That these statements are documented fact, should be no surprise to a modern day Mormon, yet they are.
That non-Mormons upon hearing about them either respond by disbelief or total shock that any clear minded person could believe such heresy, is incredible yet true.
Yep
In what universe are lds free to leave.
I have cousins who “left” 20 years ago who still get billed for tithes.
The ONLY way to leave if formally request to be removed from the rolls, and even then the request is not always granted.
It is NOT possible to just walk away, and have your name removed from the “count”.
Mormonism threads have been at FR for a decade, at least. But the threads have taken an ‘attack Momrons as a group’ direction which is not a Christian perspective. Christians exposing the heresies and blasphemies in the mormonISM is very different from what we’ve been seeing the last two years in particular.
I was raised Mormon. But when I was 11 years old my parents told me I could determine my relationship with GOD. My dad walked away. I have many family members who are Mormon. They can have it. It isn’t for me. In my head there is an intrinsic value in walking (or running) away from all the things oppressive to your freedom. The Mormons walked away from the tyranny of the US Government and those adherents. They made their own way. I’m not standing up for what they believe—per D&C, the Book of Mormon, or any other dispensation. But I don’t listen to any of the other established trains of thought. I’m standing up for people who do what they want without causing major harm to the others around them.
And this means nothing to you. I had an uncle who was a wildman. And his kids followed that example. But he married (second marriage) a Mormon woman—my aunt—who loved him with all her heart. He never converted to Mormonism. But love did change him. Over the years you could see that change in him. And in his later years he was a most enjoyable person.
I’m going to his funeral on Friday. He died peacefully at 85. In his home. With the people he loved. With the people who loved him.
RIP Uncle Lyle.
And the main point. I was raised to be free. With love. By people who understand.
I don’t care who I make mad. I have considered this at great length. I look at my grandkids and my mind is made up. Please don’t misunderstand this. I am going to fight.
Dear big head, please provide what actions are ‘bully’, all that is being done here is exposing mormonism.
Please also indicate what has been said is wrong or incarcerate in any way.
Thank you.
What are you going to fight?
The Word of God Almighty?
Salvation by Grace?
Exposing of blasphemy?
What?
If you don’t get what I am saying then don’t ask me for an explanation. Ask yourself. Or, as much as it pains you, ASK GOD.
You have a particular agenda to promote? You want me to start with the Catholics, work my way through the Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, GET THEM ALL-- LINE THEM UP FOR ME.
WHAT is the WORD of GOD almighty?
Your Graciousness ASTOUNDS me, and I'm just a man...
Exposing...yeah...expose svcw
Be my guest!
Sorry honey bun, no one gets what you are saying.
This is the Religion Forum, this is a discussing on mormonism, please make a point - thanks.
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