Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Let the Bible be “entrusted” to the faithful
La Stampa ^ | April 12, 2013 | Alessandro Speciale

Posted on 04/12/2013 5:10:48 PM PDT by markomalley

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-247 next last
To: Zionist Conspirator
Documentary Hypothesis.

This is true and worse. Which results in more disagreements among RCs.

101 posted on 04/13/2013 7:31:16 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
"It was good enough for Athanasius, and it's good enough for me!"

Then you must reject the Apocrypha.

102 posted on 04/13/2013 7:31:30 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o

Thanks for posting this. I subscribe but had not seen the latest.


103 posted on 04/13/2013 7:32:12 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: terycarl
wern't the Salem witch trials held by protestants in this country ??

Yes, and worse in England. They had much to unlearn from Rome and the worldly means she conformed to. A recent RC here even affirmed the use of torture and death against theological dissenters. But left the thread after being challenged on it.

104 posted on 04/13/2013 7:35:33 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; aMorePerfectUnion

Moreover, the texts that are invoked in trying to support this tradition apply to more than the apostles.


105 posted on 04/13/2013 7:36:08 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212

Few remember the Salem witch trials were called to a halt, not by the govt, but by the Church.


106 posted on 04/13/2013 7:42:19 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: Cvengr

Placemarker.


107 posted on 04/13/2013 7:48:56 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: Salvavida

“Basic Bible Interpretation...”

...results in absolute accuracy when it comes from the Holy Spirit. And you are correct...it has nothing to do with ‘Tradition’.

That all said, there may be many applications of Scripture, the written Word of God, but there is only one ‘interpretation’...That one interpretation does not come from any man, nor from any group of men, nor from ‘tradition’, but from God, via His Holy Spirit, speaking to us.


108 posted on 04/13/2013 7:59:37 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
The Primacy of Peter of Gregory is not the same primacy of Peter of Rome today. It is a very different worldview.

Klaus Schatz [Jesuit Father theologian, professor of church history at the St. George’s Philosophical and Theological School in Frankfurt] on Priesthood, Canon, and the Development of Doctrine in his work, “Papal Primacy”:

. if we ask in addition whether the primitive church was aware, after Peter’s death, that his authority had passed to the next bishop of Rome, or in other words that the head of the community at Rome was now the successor of Peter, the Church’s rock and hence the subject of the promise in Matthew 16:18-19, the question, put in those terms, must certainly be given a negative answer.

"If one had asked a Christian in the year 100, 200, or even 300 whether the bishop of Rome was the head of all Christians, or whether there was a supreme bishop over all the other bishops and having the last word in questions affecting the whole Church, he or she would certainly have said no." (pages 1-3)

Before the second half of the second century there was in Rome no monarchical episcopacy for the circles mutually bound in fellowship. Peter Lampe's extensive work, "From Paul to Valentinus," chapter 41, pages 397

Self-consciously, the popes began to model their actions and their style as Christian leaders on the procedures of the Roman state”. — Eamon Duffy notes (“Saints and Sinners”, ©2001 edition)

The New Testament contains no explicit record of a transmission of Peter's leadership; nor is the transmission of apostolic authority in general very clear. Furthermore, the Petrine texts were subjected to differing interpretations as early as the time of the Church Fathers. - http://www.prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/arcic/doc/e_arcic_authority2.html

The late Catholic priest and major Biblical scholar Raymond Brown (twice appointed to Pontifical Biblical Commission) states,

“The claims of various sees to descend from particular members of the Twelve are highly dubious. It is interesting that the most serious of these is the claim of the bishops of Rome to descend from Peter, the one member of the Twelve who was almost a missionary apostle in the Pauline sense – a confirmation of our contention that whatever succession there was from apostleship to episcopate, it was primarily in reference to the Puauline tyupe of apostleship, not that of the Twelve.” (“Priest and Bishop, Biblical Reflections,” Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, 1970, pg 72.)

The Catholic historian Paul Johnson (educated at the Jesuit independent school Stonyhurst College, and at Magdalen College, Oxford, author of over 40 books and a conservative popular historian,) writes in his 1976 work, “History of Christianity” :

Eusebius presents the lists as evidence that orthodoxy had a continuous tradition from the earliest times in all the great Episcopal sees and that all the heretical movements were subsequent aberrations from the mainline of Christianity.

Looking behind the lists, however, a different picture emerges. In Edessa, on the edge of the Syrian desert, the proofs of the early establishment of Christianity were forgeries, almost certainly manufactured under Bishop Kune, the first orthodox Bishop.

In Egypt, Orthodoxy was not established until the time of Bishop Demetrius, 189-231, who set up a number of other sees and manufactured a genealogical tree for his own bishopric of Alexandria, which traces the foundation through ten mythical predecessors back to Mark, and so to Peter and Jesus.

Even in Antioch, where both Peter and Paul had been active, there seems to have been confusion until the end of the second century. Antioch completely lost their list; “When Eusebius’s chief source for his Episcopal lists, Julius Africanus, tried to compile one for Antioch, he found only six names to cover the same period of time as twelve in Rome and ten in Alexandria. http://reformation500.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/historical-literature-on-the-earliest-papacy/

Eusebius, while invaluable, also only sincerely believed and recorded as fact (Church History I.13) the “Legend of Abgar,” a story of a correspondence between the Lord and the local potentate at Edessa. Relative to this, Lightfoot writes of him, “A far more serious drawback to his value as a historian is the loose and uncritical spirit in which he sometimes deals with his materials. This shows itself in diverse ways. He is not always to be trusted in his discrimination of genuine and spurious documents.”

Roger Collins ((M.A., D. Litt., F.R.Hist.S., F.S.A. Scot., English medievalist at Edinburgh), writing of the Symmachan forgeries”, describes these “pro-Roman” “enhancements” to history:

So too would the spurious historical texts written anonymously or ascribed to earlier authors that are known collectively as the Symmachan forgeries. This was the first occasion on which the Roman church had revisited its own history, in particular the third and fourth centuries, in search of precedents. That these were largely invented does not negate the significance of the process...

Some of the periods in question, such as the pontificates of Sylvester and Liberius (352-366), were already being seen more through the prism of legend than that of history, and in the Middle Ages texts were often forged because their authors were convinced of the truth of what they contained. Their faked documents provided tangible evidence of what was already believed true...

“It is no coincidence that the first systematic works of papal history appear at the very time the Roman church’s past was being reinvented for polemical purposes.” (Collins, “Keepers of the Keys of Heaven,” pp 80-82).

Also from Johnson,

With Cyprian, then, the freedom preached by Paul and based on the power of Christian truth was removed from the ordinary members of the Church, it was retained only by the bishops, through whom the Holy Spirit still worked, who were collectively delegated to represent the totality of Church members. They were given wide powers of discretion, subject always to the traditional and attested truth of the Church and the scriptures. They were rulers, operating and interpreting a law. With Bishop Cyprian, the analogy with secular government came to seem very close. But of course it lacked one element: the ‘emperor figure’ or supreme priest…

There is no evidence that Rome exploited this text [Mt. 16:18] to assert its primacy before about 250 – and then, interestingly enough, in conflict with the aggressive episcopalian Cyprian – but what is clear is that in the second half of the second century, and no doubt in response to Marcion’s Pauline heresy – the first heresy Rome itself had experienced – Paul was eliminated from any connection with the Rome episcopate and the office was firmly attached to Peter alone…

The Church survived, and steadily penetrated all ranks of society over a huge area, by avoiding or absorbing extremes, by compromise, by developing an urbane temperament and erecting secular-type structures to preserve its unity and conduct its business. There was in consequence a loss of spirituality or, as Paul would have put it, of freedom… (A History of Christianity, by Paul Johnson, see pp. 51- 61, 63. [transcribed using OCR software])

Ratzinger asserted, Even stated, we are fairly certain today that, while the Fathers were not Roman Catholics as the thirteenth or nineteenth century world would have understood the term, they were, nonetheless, ‘Catholic,’ (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology, trans. Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, Theolgische Prinzipienlehre ]San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987], p. 141.)

More

109 posted on 04/13/2013 8:03:09 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212

A very good website, thank you for the link!


110 posted on 04/13/2013 8:13:49 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

Historical facts can stand on their own.


111 posted on 04/13/2013 10:44:16 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

So how long do you plan on living in the Old Testament times?


112 posted on 04/13/2013 10:45:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

What was your prior FR screen name?


113 posted on 04/13/2013 10:46:28 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

“So how long do you plan on living in the Old Testament times?”


You forget our roles. I’m the salvation by grace through faith guy, and you’re the guy who thinks salvation is through carnal ordinances and personal works.


114 posted on 04/13/2013 11:01:38 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; aMorePerfectUnion

Thank God. You may be edified by these as well:

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/04/historical-roots-of-reformation-and.html
http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com
http://vintage.aomin.org/Roman.html


115 posted on 04/14/2013 1:31:52 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 110 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
“St Paul only had hope; who are you to have such certainty?”

Saint Paul had assurance; who are you to go against the word of God?

Me? Your verses refer to those whom God has chosen. It does not call out anyone in particular for certain. Paul speaks at great length throughout his Epistles about faith and hope.

1 Corinthians: 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

No certainty there. Faith. Hope. Love. So I ask again, how does GPH have certainty, while calling on the name of Paul, yet Paul does not have certainty?

“The Catholic Church began there, true.”

Indeed, too bad the Roman church isn’t the Catholic church. It just has Romanists in it, who don’t even hold the same beliefs as “Popes” like Gregory, or Bishops like Augustine, and many others, whom they claim as forebears.

Piffle. Those who talk about the "Roman" church or "Romanists" and so on say a lot of mush like this that really doesn't mean anything. Augustine contributed much, but at one point in his life, he drifted into heresy. I don't hold those heretical beliefs, if that's what you mean.

And to which Gregory (Gregorius) are you referring? There were 16. If you are referring to Gregory the Great, are you alluding to the creation of the Pre Tridentine Mass? If so, does that mean that with my fondness of the Tridentine Mass, you would claim that I don't hold the same beliefs as him?

116 posted on 04/14/2013 4:39:00 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: smvoice
...I’m getting the popcorn ready...This is promising to become THE Saturday night rumble. If you put up the “clapping audience” picture, I’m the one in the third row, center. I have my Bible ready, and the whole armour of God on. Now, let’s get ready to RUMBLE..:)

Sorry to disappoint, but this is like the Undertaker fighting Danny DeVito.

117 posted on 04/14/2013 4:43:40 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion
And the top of the morning to ye!!!!

I have not been posting overly much of late. Time and circumstance have been pressing on me.

God has no grandchildren. Only children. Every true believer is related directly to Him. Baptized by the Spirit into His Body, included as part of His Bride, included in the universal communion of the saints, immediately.

However, one must realize that if one does not enter into the relationship with God fully, or for selfish purposes, or walks away from it, then one effectively divorces God. St Paul is very clear on this - it is a lifetime commitment, not a one shot deal.

The believer who comes to Christ in a jungle or desert, who comes to entrust himself to Christ for salvation today, is part of His Church, though he is the first generation. Every true believer is the first generation. Where two or more are gathered for prayer and worship, His Body, His Bride, His Church is there. As such it ALL begins with HIM. It ALL ends with HIM. It’s ALL for His glory. EVERY church that is comprised of true believers was begins at the same time in history - directly attached to HIM.

Now, you're qualifying things. True believers? How many churches are comprised entirely of true believers? When you wander the mall and see a church of Joe in one of the storefronts, and look inside and see what? What's in there? The preacher has what credentials? What theological training? What ensures that he (don't get me started on female preachers) holds Christian beliefs?

Nuthin'.

Having said all that, it is great to see you :-)

You are most kind; thank you. I miss posting to the extent that I formerly did; perhaps I have contributed at least something.

118 posted on 04/14/2013 4:59:29 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
Oh, this is excellent, and illustrates exactly why Athanasius is such a champion of the Tradition. He participated in the Council of Nicaea and vigorously defended the validity and authority of its doctrines: thus he was a defender of Sacred Tradition.

He was the author of the Athanasian Creed (Link), a basic statement of the Catholic faith (as he says in its first line)(tip'o'the hat to the Orthodox as well); he defended the Incarnation and the Trinity; thus he was a contributor to the Sacred Tradition.

Very much so. His creed is the most definitive Christian Creed. And, as you have very well pointed out, he was a most orthodox Catholic and promulgated the Faith very very well.

119 posted on 04/14/2013 5:42:05 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr
Thank you. Implying that Athanasius was some kind of Sola Scriptura Proto-Protestant, is like saying Colonel Sanders was a vegetarian.

:o)

120 posted on 04/14/2013 8:16:16 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (" If they refuse to listen even to the Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 119 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212
When I was speaking of "the texts" in that response to Sal, I wasn't speaking of "all texts," I was just speaking of the ones under discussion about the "example" of the Apostles.

That would have been the texts I quoted here: #10

Thank you for giving me a chance to make that clarification.

121 posted on 04/14/2013 8:29:44 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (" If they refuse to listen even to the Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 98 | View Replies]

To: smvoice
I have my Bible ready

Aren't you the one who rejects the Protestant / Reformed understanding of baptism and the Lord's Supper? Don't you believe that only Paul's epistles are applicable to today, and that the Gospels are of no effect, being meant for the Jews?

122 posted on 04/14/2013 10:38:41 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

“Historical facts can stand on their own.”

And yet that doesn’t make then a more powerful argument than the truth in the Scriptures... Nor is it a convincing argument, if that was your desire. We ALL trace our origin directly to Him. He stands outside time.


123 posted on 04/14/2013 10:40:31 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

“Me? Your verses refer to those whom God has chosen.”


You should probably be horrified at the idea (the way you understand it), since it implies that you can not be chosen; after all, you don’t believe you are chosen because of the grace of God without works. You believe you are chosen because of your works. And if you are chosen because of them, you can be lost because of them.

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

But the “choice” being made isn’t based on our merits, but on the sovereign grace of God who foreknows us and predestinates us so that we are conformed to the image of His Son. It is for the purpose that we, through the power of God, are conformed to holiness; not because He foreknew that we would conform ourselves to holiness.

If all of this is true, we know that even faith itself is the gift of God, wrought in us through the illuminating and quickening power of the Holy Spirit. We know that our works cannot in any way add or take away from our salvation, but rather that good works shall be the fruit of our faith, and our falling away from it will in no way damn those of us who rest easily in the promises of Jesus Christ:

Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

If I shall not be thrown out, who is drawn to the Father, shall I live in the terrible life of a Romanist who rests in Roman carnal ordinances that in no way saves you or makes you a better person?

“It does not call out anyone in particular for certain.”


The effectual call is to all believers ordained before the foundation of the world:

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

And not only do I believe as they do, the Spirit witnesses of my own salvation:

Rom 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This is not in the Mormon sense, a fuzzy feeling in the bossom. This is in the very real sense of changes and fruit in the life of the believer. Though I still sin, yet my life is very different from what it was before. Though I am wretched, I receive very real answers to prayers showing the hand of God on my life. Is there any doubt that I have faith in Jesus Christ, and that my faith is counted for righteousness? And that this faith is a living faith, which produces good works? Mind you, I am one of the most evil men on this planet, and the fruit of my faith belongs to God wholly, who works in me and loves me, though I often times am His enemy.

Shall I forsake the witness of the Spirit, the very real change in the life of a believer, for the cold and musky comfort of the Roman tomb? How many Catholics have I known who have come home from mass, only to grab a pack of Tarot cards?

Well, considering in Tobith, the angel actually encourages witchcraft (burning fish guts to war off evil spirits), I suppose that isn’t as big a contradiction for the Romanists as it would be for me.

“Piffle. Those who talk about the “Roman” church or “Romanists” and so on say a lot of mush like this that really doesn’t mean anything. Augustine contributed much, but at one point in his life, he drifted into heresy. I don’t hold those heretical beliefs, if that’s what you mean.”


Can you please provide evidence that Augustine’s “Calvinist” views and their use in the rejection of Pelagianism is in fact heresy or was considered heresy? No doubt it is today, but can you provide evidence that it was at that time?

And after that, can you address the quotes from “Pope” Gregory the first and Theodoret wherein the “Primacy of Peter” is applied to three separate Bishops who all possess the throne of Peter?

Maybe then I can take you seriously, and not regard you as someone who argues when he has no foundation for it.


124 posted on 04/14/2013 11:30:22 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; narses
“Me? Your verses refer to those whom God has chosen.”

You should probably be horrified at the idea (the way you understand it), since it implies that you can not be chosen; after all, you don’t believe you are chosen because of the grace of God without works.

Ah, you are a rerun antiCatholic after all. Mind telling us your former screen name(s)?

What horrifies me is the assumption that the dude in the mirror is saved simply because he declares it. That puts God in a position of subservience to you. Nope. Or else we have the assumption that only some are saved and some are discarded at God's whim. In that case, your stated position is untenable again. Or else we have the assumption that all are saved. Again, untenable. There is no nonCatholic position that holds water when one reads and understands Scripture.

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

But the “choice” being made isn’t based on our merits, but on the sovereign grace of God who foreknows us and predestinates us so that we are conformed to the image of His Son. It is for the purpose that we, through the power of God, are conformed to holiness; not because He foreknew that we would conform ourselves to holiness. Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

If I shall not be thrown out, who is drawn to the Father, shall I live in the terrible life of a Romanist who rests in Roman carnal ordinances that in no way saves you or makes you a better person?

If? Now we are quibbling and running around trying to mask the shifting sands of our position? How do you know that you are saved? Do you follow the Great Commandments of Jesus? Do you think that they are applicable to you the individual?

The effectual call is to all believers ordained before the foundation of the world:

Yeah? You count yourself in that group? Why?

“Piffle. Those who talk about the “Roman” church or “Romanists” and so on say a lot of mush like this that really doesn’t mean anything. Augustine contributed much, but at one point in his life, he drifted into heresy. I don’t hold those heretical beliefs, if that’s what you mean.”

Can you please provide evidence that Augustine’s “Calvinist” views and their use in the rejection of Pelagianism is in fact heresy or was considered heresy? No doubt it is today, but can you provide evidence that it was at that time?

Sure. Google up Ambrose's chats with Augustine and see what the Church believed and believes today. Ambrose never fell out with the Church.

And after that, can you address the quotes from “Pope” Gregory the first and Theodoret wherein the “Primacy of Peter” is applied to three separate Bishops who all possess the throne of Peter?

Mind providing me a link? I'd like to see what source you are referring to.

Maybe then I can take you seriously, and not regard you as someone who argues when he has no foundation for it.

You are far too kind. I most appreciate the antiCatholics that I have met on FR and elsewhere. They have strengthened my Faith to an extent that I would not previously have believed. Perhaps God has nudged us together so that I may believe more deeply and grow in the Faith that is handed down to us from the Apostles, who received it directly from Christ Himself.

125 posted on 04/14/2013 12:27:45 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

To: don-o; smvoice
Aren't you the one who rejects the Protestant / Reformed understanding of baptism and the Lord's Supper? Don't you believe that only Paul's epistles are applicable to today, and that the Gospels are of no effect, being meant for the Jews?

There are many Protestants who believe that only Paul's Epistles have any merit or application to Christians. There are many who believe that only Luke and Acts are useful. Some throw in Isaiah. Most have a horror of Jude, and almost never refer to Matthew.

126 posted on 04/14/2013 12:30:22 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
Thank you. Implying that Athanasius was some kind of Sola Scriptura Proto-Protestant, is like saying Colonel Sanders was a vegetarian.

The Calvinists, in particular, love to claim Augustine, but I've never seen them embrace Athenasius before. Times must be tough on the antiCatholic front.

127 posted on 04/14/2013 12:41:26 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 120 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

“Ah, you are a rerun antiCatholic after all. Mind telling us your former screen name(s)?”


Is it anti-Catholic to accurately depict your theology and contrast it with the scripture?

“What horrifies me is the assumption that the dude in the mirror is saved simply because he declares it.”


Then you are horrified at the scripture, since I can get up and look at the mirror right now and say:

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Either salvation is a free gift from God, or it is not. You can’t have it both ways. You poor fellow, you think that you can block the way to salvation. Thank God the only way to heaven is through Christ Himself, and not through MarkBsnr or the carnal ordinances of his religion.

“That puts God in a position of subservience to you.”


Wrong. YOU put God in subservience to you, because you declare that by your works you can force God’s hand to save you. Did you even read anything that I wrote? Did you even read the scripture? I told you, salvation is the work of God, from beginning to end. Nothing that I have is my own. All that I am, I have received from the Father. Without Him, we can have nothing, can be nothing, we can know nothing. To God is the eternal glory.

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

“If? Now we are quibbling and running around trying to mask the shifting sands of our position?”


Are you even capable of logically comprehending what I was writing? Did I say I disbelieved what Jesus Christ said? The “if” is for you who will either read what Christ said or not.

“Do you follow the Great Commandments of Jesus?”


Joh 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Mar 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Looks like I do. No Roman bowing or scraping for scraps of grace here.

“Sure.”


So you’re basically arguing that the Church has indeed embraced Pelagianism in rejecting Augustine’s doctrine. You did not provide for me any evidence, however, that Augustine’s doctrine was considered heresy by the church.

“Mind providing me a link? I’d like to see what source you are referring to.”


The link is to this thread. You should have read it before challenging me, after so much information has been provided disputing the very foundations of Roman Catholicism itself.

“Yeah? You count yourself in that group? Why?”-


I already explained it to you. Read the post again.


128 posted on 04/14/2013 12:55:23 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 125 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

“I have not been posting overly much of late. Time and circumstance have been pressing on me.”

I’m far too pressed for time also.

“However, one must realize that if one does not enter into the relationship with God fully, or for selfish purposes, or walks away from it, then one effectively divorces God. St Paul is very clear on this - it is a lifetime commitment, not a one shot deal.”

Friend, if someone does not bear fruit, he wasn’t a believer. Works are the outward sign of the life of Christ inside. Once someone trusts His sacrifice and is baptized into the Body of Christ, Sealed with the Holy Spirit and given eternal life, He does not lose his salvation.

To lose his salvation requires more than he is capable of accomplishing on his own!

(some L. R. Sheldon excerpts on what one must do to lose their salvation)

1. He must take himself out of the Body of Christ into which he has been baptized by the Holy Spirit.
2. He must climb up to heaven and take from God his life which is hid in Christ.
3. He must pluck himself out of the hand of the Lord Jesus.
4. As he has been bought by Christ and no longer owns himself, he would have to sell himself if the original purchaser (God) agreed.
5.He must stop Christ from his Priestly work of intercession by which he is saved to the uttermost.
6.He must not believe when the scripture says the believer has eternal life and shall not fall into condemnation.
7. He must break the seal by which he has been sealed unto the day of redemption.
8. He must become ignorant of the fact that every child of God is..
a. Foreknown, predestinated, called, Justified, and glorified.
b. Perfected forever.
c. Complete in Christ.
d. Viewed by God as perfect in Christ.
9. He must wrest scripture from it’s context and shut his eyes to the general teaching of the word of God.

“Now, you’re qualifying things. True believers? How many churches are comprised entirely of true believers?”

Churches are ONLY comprised of true believers. Other non-believers who show up are not part of His Church, His Body, His Bride.

“When you wander the mall and see a church of Joe in one of the storefronts, and look inside and see what? What’s in there? The preacher has what credentials? What theological training? What ensures that he (don’t get me started on female preachers) holds Christian beliefs?”

Are you asking...

Was he a fisherman like Peter, Andrew, James, and John?
Was he a Jewish pharisee and tent maker like Paul?
Was he a tax collector like Matthew?
Was he a physician like Luke?
Was he a zealot like Simon?

Was he chosen by lot like Matthias?
Does he know Christ?

I will prefer someone of demonstrated Christian character, who knows and loves Christ and those he serves - and spends his time on his knees seeking God, to a highly trained person who knows the “right answers”, but loves himself and seeks power, sex or self-aggrandizement.

You can, of course, go right to the Bible and find the specific qualifications for Elders as set out under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is most amazing to see what is not there. It is most encouraging to see what qualifications God sets out.

blessings to you in your busy life.


129 posted on 04/14/2013 12:57:41 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
“Ah, you are a rerun antiCatholic after all. Mind telling us your former screen name(s)?”

Is it anti-Catholic to accurately depict your theology and contrast it with the scripture?

Nice to see the confirmation as to your status. Mind stating your former screen name(s)?

“What horrifies me is the assumption that the dude in the mirror is saved simply because he declares it.”

Then you are horrified at the scripture, since I can get up and look at the mirror right now and say:

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Only if you persist in that belief. At the hour of your death, that is what God will take and Judge you with. Remember the Beatitudes? Are they only suggestions? How about the 10 Commandments?

That puts God in a position of subservience to you.”

Wrong. YOU put God in subservience to you, because you declare that by your works you can force God’s hand to save you. Did you even read anything that I wrote? Did you even read the scripture? I told you, salvation is the work of God, from beginning to end. Nothing that I have is my own. All that I am, I have received from the Father. Without Him, we can have nothing, can be nothing, we can know nothing. To God is the eternal glory. Negative. The Calvinist world view is that God has selected individuals to save and the rest are damned. The Catholic worldview is that we must do as God instructs us or else we are damned. Ever read the parables in Matthew? They are most instructive.

Are you even capable of logically comprehending what I was writing? Did I say I disbelieved what Jesus Christ said? The “if” is for you who will either read what Christ said or not.

I get the impression that you don't believe that they apply to you at all. Your salvation is a done deal, right?

Do you follow the Great Commandments of Jesus?”

Joh 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Mar 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Looks like I do. No Roman bowing or scraping for scraps of grace here.

So, are you doing good for your own sake, or doing good because of gaining celestial brownie points, as you accuse Catholics of doing?

“Mind providing me a link? I’d like to see what source you are referring to.”

The link is to this thread. You should have read it before challenging me, after so much information has been provided disputing the very foundations of Roman Catholicism itself.

You are very generous in your proferring. The trouble with your stated position is that the Catholic position is the one that came down to us from the Apostles. You have still not stated how you know that you are saved.

I already explained it to you. Read the post again.

I did. It was no more fascinating the second time than the first. You may wish to switch to Christianity at some point.

130 posted on 04/14/2013 1:58:24 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 128 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion
Friend, if someone does not bear fruit, he wasn’t a believer. Works are the outward sign of the life of Christ inside. Once someone trusts His sacrifice and is baptized into the Body of Christ, Sealed with the Holy Spirit and given eternal life, He does not lose his salvation.

The trouble with the term 'seal' is that it did not mean at those times to be encased in an impermeable baggie. It meant to have a mark put upon the object - usually in wax with the king's signet ring. The wax was to indicate that the contents, if the seal was not broken, to be what the king wanted to be there. If the seal was broken - and it very well could be - then there is no guarantee that the king's content could be deemed valid.

Are you asking... Was he a fisherman like Peter, Andrew, James, and John? Was he a Jewish pharisee and tent maker like Paul? Was he a tax collector like Matthew? Was he a physician like Luke? Was he a zealot like Simon? Was he chosen by lot like Matthias? Does he know Christ?

Very good. It is not what was in our heart before we knew Christ, but after.

You can, of course, go right to the Bible and find the specific qualifications for Elders as set out under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is most amazing to see what is not there. It is most encouraging to see what qualifications God sets out.

Yes. Unlike some of our antagonists, I think that we understand that there are requirements given to Christians and that they are required to follow them.

131 posted on 04/14/2013 2:05:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 129 | View Replies]

To: don-o; Dutchboy88; CynicalBear; metmom

I’m the one who stands waiting patiently for someone from the RCC to give a sensible answer to the simple question: Why Paul? If Peter and the 11 were given the great commission from Christ, and understood plainly what they were to do (and they did), why does Paul claim in Rom. 11:13 that he is the Apostle to the Gentiles (and he was, as given to him by direct revelation from the risen Christ). It’s just a simple question that has yet to be answered.


132 posted on 04/14/2013 2:34:07 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

“Nice to see the confirmation as to your status. Mind stating your former screen name(s)?”


Nice seeing how, under pressure, you turn to accusations and claims of anti-Catholic bigotry, even when you don’t dispute the details of the statements given.

“Only if you persist in that belief. At the hour of your death, that is what God will take and Judge you with.”


Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I’ll be confident that what God has begun in me, He will finish. The faith that I have, as has been related over and over again, is not my own work, but God who revealed Himself to me, as He does all believers.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

“Remember the Beatitudes? Are they only suggestions? How about the 10 Commandments?”


We’ve been over this:

Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

What need I to fear, I who loves God, by the grace of God, and loves man, by the working of God? Faith and works, inevitably, must bow to grace. These works are a reality, but they are only the fruit of what God has begun. Salvation, therefore, is by grace alone, by faith alone, without the working of the law.

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either salvation is wrought entirely by God, or it is by the works of the man. I for one shall believe the words of Christ on this matter.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

“he Calvinist world view is that God has selected individuals to save and the rest are damned. The Catholic worldview is that we must do as God instructs us or else we are damned. Ever read the parables in Matthew? They are most instructive.”


Who cares about world views? I don’t care about the Catholic view, or of your confused views of grace. I don’t care that they merely exist. I care about Christ’s view. Make an argument, don’t just tell me you have an opinion. Use the scripture, be serious, show me how A leads to B. Defend yourself, don’t just attack me.

“Your salvation is a done deal, right?”


Yes, who can resist the will of God?

Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

“So, are you doing good for your own sake, or doing good because of gaining celestial brownie points, as you accuse Catholics of doing?”


What do you think, thou prattler? How many times do I have to tell you that the fruits that I have are God’s, and not my own, until you believe me?

Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

“The trouble with your stated position is that the Catholic position is the one that came down to us from the Apostles. “


My stated position was a direct quotation from your Pope demonstrating that you have no tradition going back to the Apostles. You have a developing papal tradition that near the end of the 6th century still did not believe in the primacy of Rome.

Looks like you really don’t read anything I say.

“You may wish to switch to Christianity at some point.”


Says the guy who has not yet made one argument using the scripture.


133 posted on 04/14/2013 2:40:34 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr; Dutchboy88; CynicalBear; metmom

And there are many non-denomination members of the Body of Christ who fear no Book of the God’s Word. There is nothing to fear in Jude, Matthew, Luke, Acts or anywhere in the Bible. Unless a person has no clue as to what is for their understanding and what is for their doing in this age. Going to Matthew for answers to this time of grace will never answer questions about this time. It WILL answer questions about the Kingdom, and the Messianic Church, and Israel, and the law, and prophecy. But not the mystery of God’s will in this dispensation of the grace of God.


134 posted on 04/14/2013 2:44:05 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | View Replies]

To: smvoice
I’m the one who stands waiting patiently for someone from the RCC to give a sensible answer to the simple question:

Why not ask your fellow sola scriptura believers if they believe it is wrong to receive water baptism in obedience to what is called "The Great Commission"? Don't you believe it is wrong to do so?

135 posted on 04/14/2013 3:25:42 PM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies]

Comment #136 Removed by Moderator

To: don-o

Why not answer my question first: Why Paul?


137 posted on 04/14/2013 3:32:57 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 135 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

LOL! The fact that both the Western and Eastern churches have a feast day for these two nuts is kinda the cherry on top.


138 posted on 04/14/2013 3:36:32 PM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

..so Jesus Christ built His Church on a “doofus”? And gave to this “doofus” the keys to the kingdom?


139 posted on 04/14/2013 3:41:28 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | View Replies]

To: smvoice
Why not answer my question first: Why Paul?

Here is an answer: I don't know (does an answer from a not Catholic count?)

Now, will you ask some of your co-belligerents why they are baptizing Christians in water?

140 posted on 04/14/2013 3:42:20 PM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr

“Ah, you are a rerun antiCatholic after all. Mind telling us your former screen name(s)?”

Yep. Any ideas?


141 posted on 04/14/2013 3:51:21 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 125 | View Replies]

To: don-o; Dutchboy88; CynicalBear; metmom
Here is my answer. You'll have to ask them.

BTW: without knowing the answer to "why Paul?", more than half of Acts, and Romans through Philemon, are completely of no understanding to you. Thus guaranteeing you will stand before God ashamed. 2 TIm. 2:15 and 3:15-17.

142 posted on 04/14/2013 3:51:44 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 140 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Mind stating your former screen name(s)?


143 posted on 04/14/2013 3:52:30 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: narses

“Mind stating your former screen name(s)?”


Macbeth, and with bold, bloody resolution I’ll keep refuting the pitiful arguments of you Catholics.

“Pope” Gregory placing the throne of Peter under three Bishops:

“Whereas there were many apostles, yet for the principality itself, one only see of the apostles prevailed, in authority, which is of one, but in three places. For he elevated the see in which he condescended to rest, and to finish his present life. He decorated the see, to which he sent his disciple the evangelist, and he established the see, in which, although he intended to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since there fore the see is of one and is one, over which three bishops preside by divine authority, whatsoever good I hear of you, I ascribe to myself. And if you hear any good of me, number it among your merits, be- cause we are all one in him who says, that all should be one, as thou, O Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may be one in us. — In the Eulogy’ to the Bishop of Alexandria

Theodoret references the same belief when he places the “throne of Peter” under the Bishop of Antioch:

“Dioscorus, however, refuses to abide by these decisions; he is turning the See of the blessed Mark upside down; and these things he does though he perfectly well knows that the Antiochene (of Antioch) metropolis possesses the throne of the great Peter, who was teacher of the blessed Mark, and first and coryphæus (head of the choir) of the chorus of the apostles.” Theodoret - Letter LXXXVI - To Flavianus, Bishop of Constantinople.


144 posted on 04/14/2013 3:57:28 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: smvoice

Is judging another’s servant a full time job or just a hobby?


145 posted on 04/14/2013 4:06:10 PM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]

To: don-o

One man’s “judging” is another man’s “ preaching the word...reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” (4:2). God said it, not me.


146 posted on 04/14/2013 4:27:28 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: MarkBsnr
Some additional great thoughts on Ephesians 1:13,14... (from some old friends)

The word “seal” indicates security (Matt. 27:66; Eph. 4:30), authentication and approval (John 6:27), certification of genuineness (John 3:33), and identification of ownership (2 Cor. 1:22; Rev. 7:2; 9:4). God is the One who seals, Christ is the sphere in which the seal is done, and the Holy Spirit is the instrument of the seal.

The Holy Spirit who seals is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. The “deposit” is more than a pledge which could be returned; it is a down payment with a guarantee of more to come (cf. “the firstfruits of the Spirit,” Rom. 8:23). “A deposit guaranteeing” translates the Greek arrabōn (used elsewhere in the NT only in 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5). It guarantees believers’ “inheritance” of salvation and heaven (cf. 1 Peter 1:4). (See comments on “inheritance” in Eph. 1:18.) In essence, the “deposit” of the Holy Spirit is a little bit of heaven in believers’ lives with a guarantee of much more yet to come.

1:14b. The believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption (apolytrōsin; of those who are God’s possession. This redemption is not release from the guilt of sin; that was spoken of in Ephesians 1:7 and the believer is already “God’s possession.” Instead, this is the believer’s ultimate, final release from the presence of sin (cf. Rom. 8:23b; Phil. 3:20–21). The Greek word for “possession” (peripoiēsis) is also used in 1 Thessalonians 5:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Hebrews 10:39 (see comments there); and 1 Peter 2:9. Again the doxological refrain, to the praise of His glory, is repeated here as it was after the description of the work of the Father (Eph. 1:6) and of the Son (v. 12).

Hoehner, H. W. (1985). Ephesians. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), . Vol. 2: The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck, Ed.) (619). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

147 posted on 04/14/2013 4:31:20 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 131 | View Replies]

To: smvoice

What about the part where you declare my eternal fate? What’s your verse on that?


148 posted on 04/14/2013 4:36:07 PM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: don-o

You’ll find that in the RCC. Where tradition and the magisterium declare your eternal fate.


149 posted on 04/14/2013 5:31:41 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 148 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

Well said....


150 posted on 04/14/2013 6:23:37 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-247 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson