Posted on 04/12/2013 5:10:48 PM PDT by markomalley
That would have been the texts I quoted here: #10
Thank you for giving me a chance to make that clarification.
Aren't you the one who rejects the Protestant / Reformed understanding of baptism and the Lord's Supper? Don't you believe that only Paul's epistles are applicable to today, and that the Gospels are of no effect, being meant for the Jews?
“Historical facts can stand on their own.”
And yet that doesn’t make then a more powerful argument than the truth in the Scriptures... Nor is it a convincing argument, if that was your desire. We ALL trace our origin directly to Him. He stands outside time.
“Me? Your verses refer to those whom God has chosen.”
You should probably be horrified at the idea (the way you understand it), since it implies that you can not be chosen; after all, you don’t believe you are chosen because of the grace of God without works. You believe you are chosen because of your works. And if you are chosen because of them, you can be lost because of them.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But the “choice” being made isn’t based on our merits, but on the sovereign grace of God who foreknows us and predestinates us so that we are conformed to the image of His Son. It is for the purpose that we, through the power of God, are conformed to holiness; not because He foreknew that we would conform ourselves to holiness.
If all of this is true, we know that even faith itself is the gift of God, wrought in us through the illuminating and quickening power of the Holy Spirit. We know that our works cannot in any way add or take away from our salvation, but rather that good works shall be the fruit of our faith, and our falling away from it will in no way damn those of us who rest easily in the promises of Jesus Christ:
Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
If I shall not be thrown out, who is drawn to the Father, shall I live in the terrible life of a Romanist who rests in Roman carnal ordinances that in no way saves you or makes you a better person?
“It does not call out anyone in particular for certain.”
The effectual call is to all believers ordained before the foundation of the world:
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
And not only do I believe as they do, the Spirit witnesses of my own salvation:
Rom 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
This is not in the Mormon sense, a fuzzy feeling in the bossom. This is in the very real sense of changes and fruit in the life of the believer. Though I still sin, yet my life is very different from what it was before. Though I am wretched, I receive very real answers to prayers showing the hand of God on my life. Is there any doubt that I have faith in Jesus Christ, and that my faith is counted for righteousness? And that this faith is a living faith, which produces good works? Mind you, I am one of the most evil men on this planet, and the fruit of my faith belongs to God wholly, who works in me and loves me, though I often times am His enemy.
Shall I forsake the witness of the Spirit, the very real change in the life of a believer, for the cold and musky comfort of the Roman tomb? How many Catholics have I known who have come home from mass, only to grab a pack of Tarot cards?
Well, considering in Tobith, the angel actually encourages witchcraft (burning fish guts to war off evil spirits), I suppose that isn’t as big a contradiction for the Romanists as it would be for me.
“Piffle. Those who talk about the “Roman” church or “Romanists” and so on say a lot of mush like this that really doesn’t mean anything. Augustine contributed much, but at one point in his life, he drifted into heresy. I don’t hold those heretical beliefs, if that’s what you mean.”
Can you please provide evidence that Augustine’s “Calvinist” views and their use in the rejection of Pelagianism is in fact heresy or was considered heresy? No doubt it is today, but can you provide evidence that it was at that time?
And after that, can you address the quotes from “Pope” Gregory the first and Theodoret wherein the “Primacy of Peter” is applied to three separate Bishops who all possess the throne of Peter?
Maybe then I can take you seriously, and not regard you as someone who argues when he has no foundation for it.
You should probably be horrified at the idea (the way you understand it), since it implies that you can not be chosen; after all, you don’t believe you are chosen because of the grace of God without works.
Ah, you are a rerun antiCatholic after all. Mind telling us your former screen name(s)?
What horrifies me is the assumption that the dude in the mirror is saved simply because he declares it. That puts God in a position of subservience to you. Nope. Or else we have the assumption that only some are saved and some are discarded at God's whim. In that case, your stated position is untenable again. Or else we have the assumption that all are saved. Again, untenable. There is no nonCatholic position that holds water when one reads and understands Scripture.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But the “choice” being made isn’t based on our merits, but on the sovereign grace of God who foreknows us and predestinates us so that we are conformed to the image of His Son. It is for the purpose that we, through the power of God, are conformed to holiness; not because He foreknew that we would conform ourselves to holiness. Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
If I shall not be thrown out, who is drawn to the Father, shall I live in the terrible life of a Romanist who rests in Roman carnal ordinances that in no way saves you or makes you a better person?
If? Now we are quibbling and running around trying to mask the shifting sands of our position? How do you know that you are saved? Do you follow the Great Commandments of Jesus? Do you think that they are applicable to you the individual?
The effectual call is to all believers ordained before the foundation of the world:
Yeah? You count yourself in that group? Why?
“Piffle. Those who talk about the “Roman” church or “Romanists” and so on say a lot of mush like this that really doesn’t mean anything. Augustine contributed much, but at one point in his life, he drifted into heresy. I don’t hold those heretical beliefs, if that’s what you mean.”
Can you please provide evidence that Augustine’s “Calvinist” views and their use in the rejection of Pelagianism is in fact heresy or was considered heresy? No doubt it is today, but can you provide evidence that it was at that time?
Sure. Google up Ambrose's chats with Augustine and see what the Church believed and believes today. Ambrose never fell out with the Church.
And after that, can you address the quotes from “Pope” Gregory the first and Theodoret wherein the “Primacy of Peter” is applied to three separate Bishops who all possess the throne of Peter?
Mind providing me a link? I'd like to see what source you are referring to.
Maybe then I can take you seriously, and not regard you as someone who argues when he has no foundation for it.
You are far too kind. I most appreciate the antiCatholics that I have met on FR and elsewhere. They have strengthened my Faith to an extent that I would not previously have believed. Perhaps God has nudged us together so that I may believe more deeply and grow in the Faith that is handed down to us from the Apostles, who received it directly from Christ Himself.
There are many Protestants who believe that only Paul's Epistles have any merit or application to Christians. There are many who believe that only Luke and Acts are useful. Some throw in Isaiah. Most have a horror of Jude, and almost never refer to Matthew.
The Calvinists, in particular, love to claim Augustine, but I've never seen them embrace Athenasius before. Times must be tough on the antiCatholic front.
“Ah, you are a rerun antiCatholic after all. Mind telling us your former screen name(s)?”
Is it anti-Catholic to accurately depict your theology and contrast it with the scripture?
“What horrifies me is the assumption that the dude in the mirror is saved simply because he declares it.”
Then you are horrified at the scripture, since I can get up and look at the mirror right now and say:
Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Either salvation is a free gift from God, or it is not. You can’t have it both ways. You poor fellow, you think that you can block the way to salvation. Thank God the only way to heaven is through Christ Himself, and not through MarkBsnr or the carnal ordinances of his religion.
“That puts God in a position of subservience to you.”
Wrong. YOU put God in subservience to you, because you declare that by your works you can force God’s hand to save you. Did you even read anything that I wrote? Did you even read the scripture? I told you, salvation is the work of God, from beginning to end. Nothing that I have is my own. All that I am, I have received from the Father. Without Him, we can have nothing, can be nothing, we can know nothing. To God is the eternal glory.
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
“If? Now we are quibbling and running around trying to mask the shifting sands of our position?”
Are you even capable of logically comprehending what I was writing? Did I say I disbelieved what Jesus Christ said? The “if” is for you who will either read what Christ said or not.
“Do you follow the Great Commandments of Jesus?”
Joh 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Mar 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Looks like I do. No Roman bowing or scraping for scraps of grace here.
“Sure.”
So you’re basically arguing that the Church has indeed embraced Pelagianism in rejecting Augustine’s doctrine. You did not provide for me any evidence, however, that Augustine’s doctrine was considered heresy by the church.
“Mind providing me a link? I’d like to see what source you are referring to.”
The link is to this thread. You should have read it before challenging me, after so much information has been provided disputing the very foundations of Roman Catholicism itself.
“Yeah? You count yourself in that group? Why?”-
I already explained it to you. Read the post again.
“I have not been posting overly much of late. Time and circumstance have been pressing on me.”
I’m far too pressed for time also.
“However, one must realize that if one does not enter into the relationship with God fully, or for selfish purposes, or walks away from it, then one effectively divorces God. St Paul is very clear on this - it is a lifetime commitment, not a one shot deal.”
Friend, if someone does not bear fruit, he wasn’t a believer. Works are the outward sign of the life of Christ inside. Once someone trusts His sacrifice and is baptized into the Body of Christ, Sealed with the Holy Spirit and given eternal life, He does not lose his salvation.
To lose his salvation requires more than he is capable of accomplishing on his own!
(some L. R. Sheldon excerpts on what one must do to lose their salvation)
1. He must take himself out of the Body of Christ into which he has been baptized by the Holy Spirit.
2. He must climb up to heaven and take from God his life which is hid in Christ.
3. He must pluck himself out of the hand of the Lord Jesus.
4. As he has been bought by Christ and no longer owns himself, he would have to sell himself if the original purchaser (God) agreed.
5.He must stop Christ from his Priestly work of intercession by which he is saved to the uttermost.
6.He must not believe when the scripture says the believer has eternal life and shall not fall into condemnation.
7. He must break the seal by which he has been sealed unto the day of redemption.
8. He must become ignorant of the fact that every child of God is..
a. Foreknown, predestinated, called, Justified, and glorified.
b. Perfected forever.
c. Complete in Christ.
d. Viewed by God as perfect in Christ.
9. He must wrest scripture from it’s context and shut his eyes to the general teaching of the word of God.
“Now, you’re qualifying things. True believers? How many churches are comprised entirely of true believers?”
Churches are ONLY comprised of true believers. Other non-believers who show up are not part of His Church, His Body, His Bride.
“When you wander the mall and see a church of Joe in one of the storefronts, and look inside and see what? What’s in there? The preacher has what credentials? What theological training? What ensures that he (don’t get me started on female preachers) holds Christian beliefs?”
Are you asking...
Was he a fisherman like Peter, Andrew, James, and John?
Was he a Jewish pharisee and tent maker like Paul?
Was he a tax collector like Matthew?
Was he a physician like Luke?
Was he a zealot like Simon?
Was he chosen by lot like Matthias?
Does he know Christ?
I will prefer someone of demonstrated Christian character, who knows and loves Christ and those he serves - and spends his time on his knees seeking God, to a highly trained person who knows the “right answers”, but loves himself and seeks power, sex or self-aggrandizement.
You can, of course, go right to the Bible and find the specific qualifications for Elders as set out under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is most amazing to see what is not there. It is most encouraging to see what qualifications God sets out.
blessings to you in your busy life.
Is it anti-Catholic to accurately depict your theology and contrast it with the scripture?
Nice to see the confirmation as to your status. Mind stating your former screen name(s)?
“What horrifies me is the assumption that the dude in the mirror is saved simply because he declares it.”
Then you are horrified at the scripture, since I can get up and look at the mirror right now and say:
Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Only if you persist in that belief. At the hour of your death, that is what God will take and Judge you with. Remember the Beatitudes? Are they only suggestions? How about the 10 Commandments?
That puts God in a position of subservience to you.”
Wrong. YOU put God in subservience to you, because you declare that by your works you can force God’s hand to save you. Did you even read anything that I wrote? Did you even read the scripture? I told you, salvation is the work of God, from beginning to end. Nothing that I have is my own. All that I am, I have received from the Father. Without Him, we can have nothing, can be nothing, we can know nothing. To God is the eternal glory. Negative. The Calvinist world view is that God has selected individuals to save and the rest are damned. The Catholic worldview is that we must do as God instructs us or else we are damned. Ever read the parables in Matthew? They are most instructive.
Are you even capable of logically comprehending what I was writing? Did I say I disbelieved what Jesus Christ said? The “if” is for you who will either read what Christ said or not.
I get the impression that you don't believe that they apply to you at all. Your salvation is a done deal, right?
Do you follow the Great Commandments of Jesus?”
Joh 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Mar 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Looks like I do. No Roman bowing or scraping for scraps of grace here.
So, are you doing good for your own sake, or doing good because of gaining celestial brownie points, as you accuse Catholics of doing?
“Mind providing me a link? I’d like to see what source you are referring to.”
The link is to this thread. You should have read it before challenging me, after so much information has been provided disputing the very foundations of Roman Catholicism itself.
You are very generous in your proferring. The trouble with your stated position is that the Catholic position is the one that came down to us from the Apostles. You have still not stated how you know that you are saved.
I already explained it to you. Read the post again.
I did. It was no more fascinating the second time than the first. You may wish to switch to Christianity at some point.
The trouble with the term 'seal' is that it did not mean at those times to be encased in an impermeable baggie. It meant to have a mark put upon the object - usually in wax with the king's signet ring. The wax was to indicate that the contents, if the seal was not broken, to be what the king wanted to be there. If the seal was broken - and it very well could be - then there is no guarantee that the king's content could be deemed valid.
Are you asking... Was he a fisherman like Peter, Andrew, James, and John? Was he a Jewish pharisee and tent maker like Paul? Was he a tax collector like Matthew? Was he a physician like Luke? Was he a zealot like Simon? Was he chosen by lot like Matthias? Does he know Christ?
Very good. It is not what was in our heart before we knew Christ, but after.
You can, of course, go right to the Bible and find the specific qualifications for Elders as set out under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is most amazing to see what is not there. It is most encouraging to see what qualifications God sets out.
Yes. Unlike some of our antagonists, I think that we understand that there are requirements given to Christians and that they are required to follow them.
I’m the one who stands waiting patiently for someone from the RCC to give a sensible answer to the simple question: Why Paul? If Peter and the 11 were given the great commission from Christ, and understood plainly what they were to do (and they did), why does Paul claim in Rom. 11:13 that he is the Apostle to the Gentiles (and he was, as given to him by direct revelation from the risen Christ). It’s just a simple question that has yet to be answered.
“Nice to see the confirmation as to your status. Mind stating your former screen name(s)?”
Nice seeing how, under pressure, you turn to accusations and claims of anti-Catholic bigotry, even when you don’t dispute the details of the statements given.
“Only if you persist in that belief. At the hour of your death, that is what God will take and Judge you with.”
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
I’ll be confident that what God has begun in me, He will finish. The faith that I have, as has been related over and over again, is not my own work, but God who revealed Himself to me, as He does all believers.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
“Remember the Beatitudes? Are they only suggestions? How about the 10 Commandments?”
We’ve been over this:
Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
What need I to fear, I who loves God, by the grace of God, and loves man, by the working of God? Faith and works, inevitably, must bow to grace. These works are a reality, but they are only the fruit of what God has begun. Salvation, therefore, is by grace alone, by faith alone, without the working of the law.
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Either salvation is wrought entirely by God, or it is by the works of the man. I for one shall believe the words of Christ on this matter.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
“he Calvinist world view is that God has selected individuals to save and the rest are damned. The Catholic worldview is that we must do as God instructs us or else we are damned. Ever read the parables in Matthew? They are most instructive.”
Who cares about world views? I don’t care about the Catholic view, or of your confused views of grace. I don’t care that they merely exist. I care about Christ’s view. Make an argument, don’t just tell me you have an opinion. Use the scripture, be serious, show me how A leads to B. Defend yourself, don’t just attack me.
“Your salvation is a done deal, right?”
Yes, who can resist the will of God?
Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
“So, are you doing good for your own sake, or doing good because of gaining celestial brownie points, as you accuse Catholics of doing?”
What do you think, thou prattler? How many times do I have to tell you that the fruits that I have are God’s, and not my own, until you believe me?
Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
“The trouble with your stated position is that the Catholic position is the one that came down to us from the Apostles. “
My stated position was a direct quotation from your Pope demonstrating that you have no tradition going back to the Apostles. You have a developing papal tradition that near the end of the 6th century still did not believe in the primacy of Rome.
Looks like you really don’t read anything I say.
“You may wish to switch to Christianity at some point.”
Says the guy who has not yet made one argument using the scripture.
And there are many non-denomination members of the Body of Christ who fear no Book of the God’s Word. There is nothing to fear in Jude, Matthew, Luke, Acts or anywhere in the Bible. Unless a person has no clue as to what is for their understanding and what is for their doing in this age. Going to Matthew for answers to this time of grace will never answer questions about this time. It WILL answer questions about the Kingdom, and the Messianic Church, and Israel, and the law, and prophecy. But not the mystery of God’s will in this dispensation of the grace of God.
Why not ask your fellow sola scriptura believers if they believe it is wrong to receive water baptism in obedience to what is called "The Great Commission"? Don't you believe it is wrong to do so?
Why not answer my question first: Why Paul?
LOL! The fact that both the Western and Eastern churches have a feast day for these two nuts is kinda the cherry on top.
..so Jesus Christ built His Church on a “doofus”? And gave to this “doofus” the keys to the kingdom?
Here is an answer: I don't know (does an answer from a not Catholic count?)
Now, will you ask some of your co-belligerents why they are baptizing Christians in water?
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