Posted on 05/12/2013 5:55:26 PM PDT by narses
Checking your posts I never see you affirming the salvation of those who sanctify the 1st day instead, and or who understand the new covenant as abrogating dietary laws, and not answering my query concerning this directly, while regularly denigrating those whose disagree with you on this and other things.
You know..............I don't believe I have ever encountered someone (a Protestant) who is wrong on just about everything ...............
Celebrating the First Fruits took place after the First Sabbath of Unleavened.....which wasn't always on a Saturday. The year of the crucifixion.... this High Sabbath [John 19:31] was on Wednesday night/Thursday and the First Fruits were on Thursday night/Friday.
[Josephus Antiquities; Book III; Chapter X; Paragraph X]
In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries, (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the Passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs. Now these lambs are entirely burnt, besides the kid of the goats which is added to all the rest, for sins; for it is intended as a feast for the priest on every one of those days. But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them. And while they suppose it proper to honor God, from whom they obtain this plentiful provision, in the first place, they offer the first-fruits of their barley, and that in the manner following: They take a handful of the ears, and dry them, then beat them small, and purge the barley from the bran; they then bring one tenth deal to the altar, to God; and, casting one handful of it upon the fire, they leave the rest for the use of the priest. And after this it is that they may publicly or privately reap their harvest. They also at this participation of the first-fruits of the earth, sacrifice a lamb, as a burnt-offering to God.
Paragraph XI: When a week of weeks has passed over after this sacrifice, (which weeks contain forty and nine days,) on the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost, but is called by the Hebrews Asartha, which signifies Pentecost, they bring to God a loaf, made of wheat flour, of two tenth deals, with leaven; and for sacrifices they bring two lambs; and when they have only presented them to God, they are made ready for supper for the priests; nor is it permitted to leave any thing of them till the day following. They also slay three bullocks for a burnt-offering, and two rams; and fourteen lambs, with two kids of the goats, for sins; nor is there anyone of the festivals but in it they offer burnt-offerings; they also allow themselves to rest on every one of them. Accordingly, the law prescribes in them all what kinds they are to sacrifice, and how they are to rest entirely, and must slay sacrifices, in order to feast upon them.
The forty nine days , of course....is the Count of the Omer and begins with the First Fruit Sacrifice on the 16th no matter which day of the week it falls on. Celebrating the first fruits on Sunday was the Sadduccee method....and quickly copied by the Catholic Church since everything else they do is wrong as well. Josephus
Pentecost, crucifixion year was on Friday, Sivan 6,30 A.D.
You can also see the three day sequence of Passover, the First Sabbath and the first Fruits happening on three successive days by reading [Joshua 5:10-12]. They couldn't eat the grain until the offering had been made and it was made on the day after the Sabbath of Unleavened. Then....the manna stopped.
Well......I guess the question then would be, "Which day does your creator prefer? The one inspired in His Holy Scriptures....or the one the Church has portrayed."
They're obviously not the same....and since you folks cannot come up a legitimate commandment from His scriptures to honor Sunday as His Sabbath............then I'll go with His way....the scriptures.
I'm not Jewish so I don't care what they've done or what they might do. The first fruits are waved on the 16th of Nisan [Leviticus 23:11].
Well.......keep on checking. I'll get around to you eventually...........
I don't denigrate anyone. I denigrate that "House of Satan"........the Vatican!
Why don't you show us all your "First Day" meetings....from scripture....in the Greek? Then I'll show you all the meetings on the seventh day! Fair enough?
Have you NO concept of what a COVENANT is??
Save this for another thread.
Well; someone has finally noticed!!!
An AWFUL lot of people want to be included in the 'covenant'.
I want to get back to the ‘angels on a pinhead’ debate.
Who’s with me?
That restriction is incorrect, as can be abundantly substantiated, but we are to refrain from getting personal - as you have.
Just what we need,another pointy debate with lots of sharp pricks.
Yes, I am quite aware of what the texts state but obviously you are not.
Act 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. ... 44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
Where were the Gentiles? In the synagogue. Who came together the next Sabbath? The nearly the entire city, both Jew & Gentile, together in the synagogue. But what I find interesting is that you refer to the 4th commandment under the new covenant because based on the Prophets whom Jesus told us to heed, it is obvious that you have not spent much time in Isaiah regarding the place of Gentiles even though Jesus quite often quoted from Isaiah.
Isa 56:1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; ... :6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant—7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations." 8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, "Yet I will gather to him Others besides those who are gathered to him."
So according to the Word of God spoken through Isaiah, under the Messiah, the Sabbath still remains for all, including the Gentiles. Is this not what Paul told us in Heb 4? Why I do believe so. Sorry, but while you debate religion, I prefer to actually just quote Scripture and let the Word of Goid speak for Himself and here is how He defines the 'new' covenant:
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
And of course we know that Paul is quoting Jeremiah 31:34. The covenant is not really new as the substance of it remains the same, the only difference is that through Messiah, all will know the Law because it will be in their hearts forever and ever and no one will need to be taught because all will know and do.
So I ask you, has this happened yet? Has what you call the 'new' covenant been fulfilled? Does everyone know the Law of God given to Israel and are is everyone in obedience to it as Jesus walked in obedience to it? You know, Peter said that we are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people". No where is the word 'church' used here. However the words 'nation', priesthood' and 'special' people are. So where did Peter get this from?
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'
Words spoken to a mixed multitude that included Caleb, a gentile, a representation of the wild branch who joined himself to the natural branch, Israel and thus became a fellow citizen and member of God's house, His nation called Israel just as Paul says we do in Eph 2. No, there is nothing all together new, there is simply all that has been true from the beginning.
There is no “absence” of meeting on the sabbath; all but a few mentioned meetings were either Yehova commanded
“high days,” or regular sabbaths. There is not one single first day meeting mentioned in the NT that is not a part of a Torah commanded feast, except for the collecting of money, which is forbidden on a worship day.
No “reiteration” of any commandment is necessary. Yeshua declared that Torah is his purpose in coming until all things shall be accomplished. We have 1000 more years at the least for that to happen. Not one jot or tittle!
>> Why don’t you show us all your “First Day” meetings.... <<
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What daniel seems to be missing is that each of those “first day” meetings that are mentioned, are a part of one of the feasts, except for the collection of monetary offerings which cannot be done on a sabbath.
"Fair?" Before you ask any questions you need to state clearly whether you hold that those who believe as i do, because of why i do, are likely or surely lost because of that. Is 7th day sabbath keeping and or the dietary laws necessary as part of believing in Christ for salvation?
As for your challenge, that is based upon your claim on how sabbaton and sabbatwn is used is correct versus others, and so "first day of the sabbath" cannot mean first day of the week, and per usual, you relegate disagreement with you to being due to impure motive and a conspiracy of sorts.
Sorry, but you already tried to force sabbath in Col. 2:16 to refer to other than the sabbath shadow it is, and to disallow dogma as the law of commandments from referring to the 4th commandment, and considering the cardinal importance you make keeping the 7th day besides feasts and dietary laws, i do not buy the idea that God would not reiterate the 4th commandment as did the other 9, while speaking of the sabbath in the context of shadow, as with laws on diet, etc.
As for getting into finer distinctions , i will let you argue that with those who extensively debate this and scholars, one of which states in part,
Further evidence that the weekly Sabbath is in view stems from the New Testament usage of the word sabba,twn. This word is used sixty times in the New Testament in both the singular and plural, always referring to the seventh-day Sabbath.1 While Adventists themselves admit that fifty-nine times it refers to the weekly Sabbath, they still insist based upon "context" that Colossians 2:16 remains the only use of the word for ceremonial sabbaths.2 Such alleged contextual evidence is lacking. It appears that the normal meaning for sabba,twn has been abandoned to maintain a moral/ceremonial dichotomy within the Law. Bruce adds, "When the sabbath is mentioned in the OT or the NT with no contextual qualification, the weekly sabbath in intended."3
Finally, the use of the plural also does not argue for the ceremonial Sabbaths in that it is simply a Hebraism.4 As such the plural is commonly used in Scripture with a singular sense in reference to the weekly Sabbath.1 The translators of the Septuagint also felt free to employ the exact plural form (sabba,twn) in their translation of the singular tB;V'h' in the Decalogue itself (Exod. 20:8; Deut. 5:12), as well as in many other passages where the singular weekly Sabbath is in view.2 (Richard J. Griffith, “The Eschatological Significance of he Sabbath,” ThD diss., Dallas Seminary, 1990, pp. 164-171)
As for me, it is far more important that a soul has the kind of heart of faith that God has salvific regard to, for The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalms 34:18)
Thus my question to you for which i still await your answer. If it is clearly in the affirmative, then you should be able to agree to disagree, and if not, then it affirms that you are of an elitist sect which your doctrine and manner seems to indicate.
That is asking me to judge and that is not a command given to us. But what was given to us was to speak no deceit and so the truth is, He gave us His Sabbath, it is the 'sign' of His people whether Jew or Gentile. Our Messiah is the Lord of the seventh day Sabbath, the day in which He actually resurrected, so from here, the decision is up to those who read this. To study it out for themselves, to show themselves approved by working our their own salvation. Messiah came to redeem us from lawlessness, not to form new laws according to doctrines and traditions that had been in place my pagan religions for centuries before Messiah, the Word of God, came in the flesh.
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
The Word of God put in flesh, the Word of God walked in the flesh as an example of how we are to walk in the flesh. The Word of God was crucified, died and was buried and on the 3rd day, His Sabbath, the Word of God resurrected in newness of life. The only Word of God that existed at the time was that which is found left of Matthew that put on flesh just as the Word of God told us in Lk 24 and that Word of God is Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. The same Word of God that Timothy had known from his childhood that ...
2Ti 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Paul was not speaking of any Scripture that did not exist in Scripture form when he taught & preached. Paul was speaking of the only Word of God known to them and that was their Hebrew Scriptures that the church renamed the 'old' testament in order to profit from their false doctrine and invisible 'new' covenant that is no where to be found anywhere in any of the words of the Word of God, even when He was with us in the flesh.
It is indeed, thus the other 9 are reiterated, while the everlasting covenant of circumcision and other typological laws are abrogated as to literal observance being required.
You, have declared yourself the judge of matters that Yeshua has declared to us, in direct conflict with his words.
That is an interpretation in such places as Acts 20:7, and i read two sides, and am not convinced of your take on it, while it is far more important how you see sabbath and feast keeping and dietary laws being a necessary part of salvific faith obedience.
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