Posted on 05/14/2013 3:08:38 PM PDT by rhema
Kevmo: The situation that the thief on the cross was in is the same situation that the vast majority of nonbelievers find themselves in today.
Daniel: That is honestly absurd,
***No it is not absurd. ALL of us are going to die. Most of us have already acknowledged we’re not perfect.
unless perhaps you are in some prison, as very very very few souls are convicted of their need for salvation as damned+destitute sinners, being under the burden of sin, as we see in Acts 2, and 16.
***I can see you don’t like the analogy, but I’m not the one who put it there. God did.
In fact a major error today is that preaching a message that targets a suicidal jailer convicted of his need for salvation,
***See, the Holy Spirit did His job of convicting the man. Peter didn’t have to.
and who thus cries out, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Jesus testified to the world that the things it did were evil, as in warning, “woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.” (Luke 6:24-25) For in contrast, “The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.” (Psalms 34:18)
***Again, non sequitur. If these people already know Jesus died for their sins and that they’re not perfect, then we need to focus on God’s love for them. Pretty simple.
Your theology is also very superficial, as the fact that Christ died for us does not mean souls are already forgiven, but they must repent and believe in order to be so.
***You are arguing against something which I have not said, making it a straw argument. Perhaps it is your theology which is superficial.
The NT does not just preach that God love them, nor that they are already forgiven because of what Christ did, but tells souls they are damned+destitute and in need of salvation, which is why convicted souls cried out for how.
***Again, you’re arguing against stuff I have not said, making it yet another straw argument. When you get around to arguing what I ACTually said, then we can have a reasonable discussion.
Again, this does not mean they are already forgiven, thus the command, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
thus He convicts them of sin ***Exactly. He does it. We don’t have to.
Nowhere does Scripture say or teach this, but instead it abundantly shows that the Holy Spirit normatively instrumentally uses men to do so, even if He is not restricted to that means.
Thus the positive reaction of souls to apostolic preaching, as well as the negative reaction, such as that of Felix mentioned before, And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. (Acts 24:25)
Jesus said he came not to judge — Out of context ***The context is Jesus talking to Nicodemus, right after saying that he needed to be born again and the famous “For God so loved the world”... In that passage He says
And which is just what i said, that Jesus mission was not to come to sentence the world as He will when all His enemies are made His foostool, but to save:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
But which most manifestly did not mean He did not judge in the sense of telling souls they were specific sinners, which is what you erroneous protest against, nor is that what Mt. 7:1 preclude, and in if it did, then it would leave you guilty of judging souls for judging!
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (Matthew 11:20-21)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23:25-26)
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mark 9:42-45)
See, they’re condemned already. And notice that Jesus doesn’t focus on telling Nicodemus about his sins. Again, He focuses on love.
You are highly selective and have a very unbalanced message along with perverse views. They are condemned because rejecting Jesus means you love sin over Him, as 3:19-22 explains, and v. 36 warns "the wrath of God abideth on him," and rather than not preaching on sin, instead He stated, "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil." (John 7:7)
And I have given you and can give you far more texts which focus on warning lost souls of judgment then telling them God loves them.
Again, this does not mean they are already forgiven,
***Maybe it does. God extended His forgiveness on the cross, once for all. Remission of sins takes place when we repent. But just because a person doesn’t repent, that doesn’t mean they are unforgiven by God. They just have not accepted it, and that spiritual condition will send them to hell if they don’t do something about it. At any rate, we are talking around the issue.
I have proved it, if you cared to look up the sermons in which the gospel is preached, while Jn. 3 also preaches of sin, righteousness and judgment, and call souls to repentance, as teaches calls those who reject Christ love sin over Him who is righteous, and upon whom the wrath of God abides, while those who believe are showing repentance. And other messages are to a wider audience and give a fuller description of the gospel preaching. The things you miss!
thus He convicts them of sin ***Exactly. He does it. We don’t have to.
Daniel:
Nowhere does Scripture say or teach this, but instead it abundantly shows that the Holy Spirit normatively instrumentally uses men to do so, even if He is not restricted to that means.
***Fine, then. Produce the scriptures that proves this point and I’ll be on my way.
And which is just what i said, that Jesus mission was not to come to sentence the world as He will when all His enemies are made His foostool, but to save: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
***You’re saying what I said, you’re talking in circles.
But which most manifestly did not mean He did not judge in the sense of telling souls they were specific sinners, which is what you erroneous protest against,
***nope, wrong. He Himself came to save rather than condemn. He admonishes us not to judge. There’s a reason for that. Americans already know they’re not perfect. The Holy Spirit has already done His job of convicting of sin. So we don’t have to.
nor is that what Mt. 7:1 preclude, and in if it did, then it would leave you guilty of judging souls for judging!
***Non sequitur.
Wrong wrong wrong. As has been shown you, the Holy Spirit normatively uses people to convict them of sin, righteousness and judgement, and does not simply focus on the love of God to the complacent masses, which most are in the West, not some desperate honest convicted criminal with hours to live! To which masses Jesus warned they would hunger and weep, and warned the impenitent of damnation, as did the apostles whom you presume to correct.
I have proved it, if you cared to look up the sermons in which the gospel is preached, while Jn. 3 also preaches of sin, righteousness and judgment
***Show me. Here’s John 3. Point out where it commands us that we have to tell nonbelievers that they are sinners.
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
John Testifies Again About Jesus
22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”
27 To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28 You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.”[h]
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[i] gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
Wrong wrong wrong. As has been shown you, the Holy Spirit normatively uses people to convict them of sin,
***Then it should be easy for you to come up with bible verses that explicitly delineate this requirement for us to convict nonbelievers of sin.
You are highly selective and have a very unbalanced message along with perverse views.
***This is the reason why I stay away from most religion threads. If you cannot back your statements with scripture then we’re done here. You answer my questions, with direct scripture, then maybe I will engage. But here step over the line and if you don’t step back on, it’s the end of the story.
Simply giving facts about Jesus is no more the gospel preaching than just telling them God loves them, but as shown by Jesus who spoke of judgment more than heaven, it involves showing the lost their sins in the light of God's holiness and justice, in which light they can see their need for grace and be motivated to be saved. As seen in Scripture.
If you want statistics then you came to the right person. See here .
24% of the public overall and 22% of Christians say they believe in reincarnation -- that people will be reborn in this world again and again. 25% of the public overall, and 23% of Christians [so-called] indicated they believe in astrology. http://pewforum.org/newassets/images/reports/multiplefaiths/multiplefaiths.pdf),
Nearly 30% of Americans reported that they have felt in touch with someone who had died, (33% of women versus 26% of men). Almost 20% say they have seen or been in the presence of ghosts, while 15% have consulted a fortuneteller or a psychic.^
65% of American adults expressed belief in or reported of having experience with at least one of 8 different manifestations of occultic supernatural phenomena: 1. reincarnation; 2. spiritual energy located in physical things; 3. yoga as spiritual practice; 4. the "evil eye;" 5. astrology; 6; having been in touch with the dead; 7. having consulting a psychic; 8. having experiencing a ghostly encounter. This includes 23% of the general population who reported having only one of these beliefs or experiences, while 43% of the people surveyed answered two or more of these items affirmatively.^
Simply giving facts about Jesus is no more the gospel preaching than just telling them God loves them, but as shown by Jesus who spoke of judgment more than heaven, it involves showing the lost their sins in the light of God’s holiness and justice, in which light they can see their need for grace and be motivated to be saved.
***You don’t know how to address the points made. The great bulk of your posts have been straw arguments, arguing against something I didn’t say and not realizing the point made. That doesn’t seem to stop you from engaging in insults towards a brother in Christ.
Americans know they’re not perfect. They know that Jesus died for their sins. But what they don’t know is that God loves them. They don’t know that Jesus is God Himself, and that it’s simple history to point out that He was put to death for that claim.
See ya. I’m not interested in working around your straw arguments just to see maybe you have a valid point, because your points lack love (1cor13).
Why do you think "ye must be born again?" You need a new heart and which results in a new life, while those who are lost love sin over Christ, and the wrath of God abides on them.
Meanwhile, again, the thief on the cross was most unlike most people, else they would be running around declaring how they are getting the judgment they deserve and asking to be saved. Why can't you get this?!
Again, the things you miss, while acting like the whole of gospel preaching is in two chapters.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Perhaps, we need to introduce Kevmo to God's Word and what IT does?....
"For the WORD of God is ALIVE and ACTIVE. Sharper than any double-edged sword, IT penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; It judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb 4:12
And it continues until we see Jesus face-to-face.
"The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."
AMEN! It's the ones who truly search their soul often with His Word they will see how destitute they were before they were saved, children of the dark, and realize how much they have to be thankful for. And will say, I was really that bad when I thought I was a good person? And almost want to hide like Adam/Eve did. Without Jesus we are nothing and hopeless.
It does address your point, as not knowing that Jesus was put to death because He claimed to be God Himself is not why souls do not believe on Him, but because they love sin more then Him, as saith Jn. 3.
You not only have a manifestly superficial view of teaching and preaching in Scripture, but of your own teaching and my constant refutations, of which i let others judge. Time to get some sleep by God's grace.
It is not reading their mind, it is an observation of their inability to form a coherent argument. I’ve signed off this thread, so thanks for the moderation. There have been several insults hurled at me upthread, so I invite your moderation of those as well.
"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Go you therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: TEACHING them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen."
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