Posted on 06/04/2013 7:26:39 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
“If God chooses individuals for regeneration with no concern for anything regarding that individual’s beliefs, choices, thoughts, character or actions then for what conceivable reason does God choose one person over another?”
The exact reasons we are never told. It is simply a fact. All that the Lord reveals to us on the matter is that it is according to “His grace and purpose” or His “pleasure” that He decides to pluck His own peculiar people from the fire.
God has always chosen, according to His own purpose, a peculiar people for Himself. He chose the seed of Abraham instead of any other seed in the world to accomplish His purposes and be His people. He never revealed Himself to the Greeks in any special way, or the Vikings or anyone else, giving them Prophets and special care and protection. This was to the Jews only, and not to any other.
The anti-Paulites would have to also rule out the Gosples of Mark and Luke... that’s half of the 4 Gosples.
“I would not call it the “ Gospel of Paul “ for the whole word of God is God’s.
The theology of Paul ? once again, Paul gained that understanding from God himself and ? Paul was well taught in the Hebrew writings, and he also was a teacher of the law.”
Don’t worry, I agree with you. I could have been clearer though originally. My position is that the “Gospel” of Paul is the same one given to us by all the Apostles, who all received the same message from God.
The “anti-Paulites,” as absurd as they are, would have to remove a whole lot more than just the works of Paul. Notice this particular thread is analyzing a chapter out of John. Thus, they would have to add to the list John the Apostle as well to those they ban. And we could keep on doing it to others, like Peter, who refer to the epistles of Paul as Holy scripture (2 Pe 3:15-16). The anti-Paulites, logically, would be left with no Bible at all at the end of the process.
The problem I have with the idea that God regenerates us, which then in turn causes saving faith is that His choice in this matter has to be at least in part random or capricious. Surely God considers everything He knows when making any decision even if He has predetermined to discount certain categories of His knowledge in making a particular decision, such as whether or not to regenerate a person. In my limited mind there are only five potential categories of knowledge God has of individuals on which to base His decision regarding regeneration. 1) Our sin and sinful flesh, 2) good works 3) our amoral qualities such as our physical appearance 4) expediency and 5) faith. Clearly the Bible teaches that our good works are inadequate and He does not choose based on our physical appearance.
God could choose the worst sinners of which Paul and I are chief, but clearly our experience tells us that God doesn't always choose the worst sinners over lessor sinners so that cannot be His basis for choosing. And with respect to expediency, surely a sovereign, omnipotent God never cuts corners. This leaves only faith as the basis for His decision unless His choice is completely random.
Faith seems to me to be both the logical answer and the clear Bible teaching as well. Faith is not a work and has no merit as Paul convincingly argues in Romans 4:1-8. In fact we all know this intuitively as Christians, because the act of placing our faith in Christ is an admission of our guilt, our sinfulness, and our compete inability to save ourselves and that we have no appeal other than the promise of Christ's saving work. Saving faith is the antithesis of merit and therefore can be God's reason for choosing who is regenerated and consequently saved while preserving His grace and mercy and justice.
Yes God does choose for His purposes and His pleasure, but both of those involve reason and reason always must have some basis in His knowledge. God does not make any choice at random or for no reason or without any knowledge. Any decision He might make in choosing particular individuals must take into account at least one piece of knowledge He has of that individual. The Biblical answer is clearly that He takes into account who has faith in His Son as the only determining factor.
Since faith has no merit, then basing His decison on the individual's faith in Christ preserve salvation by grace alone.
“The problem I have with the idea that God regenerates us, which then in turn causes saving faith is that His choice in this matter has to be at least in part random or capricious.”
The only conclusion one can gleam from the scripture is that God’s decision is unknown. We cannot conclude so blasphemous a thought that it was random or capricious:
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Why it is He ordained us to produce fruit, and that our fruit should remain, is totally in the mind of God. But that He has done it for His own “grace and purpose” cannot be denied.
“This leaves only faith as the basis for His decision unless His choice is completely random.”
The question then becomes, “Why did you have faith, and why did others not have faith?” If the answer is, “because I had better sense, I sought when they did not, I responded as the righteous man, in my humility and fear of God, and those who believe not are more obstinate than I,” then, ultimately, you were responsible for your own salvation. You chose Jesus Christ. Christ, however, is quite clear. We did not choose Him, He chose us:
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
And outside of God’s will, no man can believe in Christ:
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Notice He says “Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given... of my Father” as an explanation for “But there are some of you that believe not.” The Jews did not disbelieve because they refused to be as righteous as you in choosing Christ. They disbelieved because they did not receive it from the Father.
“Yes God does choose for His purposes and His pleasure, but both of those involve reason”
So you confess that if He has a purpose and a pleasure in it, that therefore they must involve a reason. The only thing you don’t know is what exactly that “reason” is. You’ll have to wait to ask Him after death, though I suspect it’ll be clear by then.
“The Biblical answer is clearly that He takes into account who has faith in His Son as the only determining factor.”
In that event, then everyone would be drawn alike. But we know that is impossible, because the Jews were not drawn at all, as seen in John 6. They disbelieved not because they were drawn and rejected, but because they simply did not receive it of the Father. Therefore, this idea that God is choosing us based on us choosing Him, is totally undone from the beginning. (Well, so is the statement “You have NOT chosen me,” but I’m just adding upon it.)
I’ll also add that this also only works if faith does precede grace, or works without the aid of any other force. But the scripture is clear:
1Co_12:3 ... that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
And that no one can believe unless they are ordained:
Act_13:48 ... and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Notice they do not believe, and therefore are then ordained. They are ordained, and therefore they believe.
That makes no sense at all.
ALL Scripture is useful for teaching and there are passages that indicate that all CAN approach Him if we accept His conditions.
Every person has been shown saving grace.
Because God is then creating people for the express purpose of sending them to Hell.
That is not the God I worship, full of grace, mercy and justice.
I have experienced those so focused on the doctrine of election that they felt it unnecessary to preach the gospel, given their belief that God would save them anyhow. They thus forget, “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? - Rom. 10:14. But, more to the point of this thread, in the previous verse we read, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” The “Whosoever’s” of the bible insert a departure from man’s understanding of “the elect,” introducing an open to all view of salvation. How do we make these ideas jibe? I have often heard those speak about this using the imagery of a door into heaven, where, on the one side (facing mankind trapped in time and place) we read “Whosoever will” and on the other side of the door (having stepped through the door and into eternity), the glorified saint now reads “the elect of God” on the Heaven-side of the door.
To “over-emphasize” the doctrine of election (and I assert right now to any who might read here, that I say so with all humility and trusting that I am part of God’s elect, having received Christ as my Savior), to over-emphasize this point is to diminish (pervert?) the “Whosoever” aspect of God’s plan of salvation.
The first thing Christ did once He had chosen His disciples was to send them out into all of Israel with His message. One of the first things He told them upon His resurrection was to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations. The last thing He spoke to them before His ascension into Heaven was to serve as witnesses of Him in Jerusalem and throughout the whole world. Election did not seem to be on the mind of Christ so much as “Whosoever will.”
This is the crux of what I said...and us copied from my post
“Therefore when God chooses an individual He does knowing this and regenerates them which allows them to exercise saving faith. “
Works does not save the person...God chooses whom He wills according to His purpose. A great example is Paul...before he became a believer he was a persecutor and a murderer of Christians. There was nothing in him, nor us for that matter, that made him better than anyone else to be chosen by God..but due to grace and mercy God chooses some and bypasses others....His choice since we all deserve hell and damnation.
When God regenerates He gives us the capacity to believe in ahimsa and the Work of Christ and to come to a saving faith....not any faith in any god but rather to the faith in His Son. Apart from that grace and mercy no one, including myself, would ever believe
Amen to that
But no one will...that is the point...no one will accept His conditions because we are dead in sin and in reality hate God in our unregenerate state. So therefore we can never come to God UNLESS hHe draws us,,,in the Greek the word for the draw by God of the individual is literally the word DRAG. so man cannot come to Him on their own...God must initiate...coming to God is NOT synergistic in nature, where we cooperate, but is rather monergistic...where He predestines, chooses and hen draws the individual...
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