Posted on 06/09/2013 7:50:35 AM PDT by District13
Q. My co-worker, who is a pastor in a local church, gave me a whole bunch of handouts that he received at a training session. (The session was in preparation for a temple open house in our area.) He gave them to me and asked me to respond, but I don’t know where to start.
A. (by Allen L. Wyatt) Thank you for sending the materials so I could look at them. They are the normal “shotgun approach” that we see among many anti-Mormons. They take everything they can, load it into a series of documents, and then fling it at people hoping that something will stick. The documents you received cover Joseph Smith, prophets, grace vs. works, the Book of Mormon, the endowment, blacks and the priesthood, racism, the First Vision, polygamy, the place of faith, whitewashing history, scholarship and the Church, the endowment, unrighteous dominion, etc.
(Excerpt) Read more at fairlds.org ...
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
He’s a ....
He’s a....
No, I cited scripture and you leaped to your own conclusions. I said the Spirit is free to work as he wishes, inside and outside of Christianity.
I asked you, twice, whether or not the Holy Spirit dwells within Mormons who believe in these heretical things. You then started on a discussion on the Holy Spirit as if to say YES,
I said the Spirit is free to work as he wills, inside and outside Christianity. You are the one who interpreted that as an indwelling in nonChristians.
now you correctly refer to “former” LDS, which presumably is something you see as a positive thing.
Of course I welcome the conversion of anyone who comes to belief in the Most Holy Trinity. If you read my initial comment, I didn't defend LDS, I opposed a particular style of evangelization (confrontation via insult). As you may know from personal experience, when someone insults you, it often tends to entrench you further into your position. Very few of us pause for self reflection and introspection when we're being attacked :)
I don’t actually disagree with you on the role of the Holy Spirit in converting unbelievers.
Then we are really only disagreeing about methods of witnessing to the truth.
Be careful in interfering, however, in threads exposing ...
Interfering? I expressed an opinion about charitable speech. How do you know that insults don't close certain ears to EVER listening to the truth, whether online or offline? As a recovered liberal, I can tell you firsthand that conservative insults made me laugh and further entrenched me in my error. It was loving witness that caught my eye. Granted, that may not be true for everyone, but the folks on FR who hurl insults would have done NOTHING to bring me closer to a prolife position or closer to God.
Peace be with you.
What an intolerant thing to say.
Dear Ask Tommy,
My friends and I are concerned about our friend Resty, and we thought we would go to the top for advice due to the urgency etc
Our dear friend has been absent from our circle for some time and has just recently returned to us.
But she is different to the extent I suspect she is a (dare I say it) ...a Stepford apostate.
One of our number has pointed out that in her current written communication the spelling and syntax are NOT Resty’s old style.
Please help dear Ask Tommy, your sirship, because it appears she was stolen away by alien Christians for the period she was away, and you know how they can work on one’s liver err mind.
Concerned in Provo
Dear CinP
Never fear, I can help.
That is why I’m the profit and you are merely a scammee err dear member.
Give her a good dose of FAIR and FARMS/LDS web pages and her problem should clear up like acne.
And do tell her to stop reading that trash by Elsie and Nana. Those women give even me the heebie geebies.
Please do not forget to send in your club dues errr tithes. I need a vacation in Newport Beach err there are lots of hungry children in Nicaragua.
Ask Tommy
That's interesting...
1 Peter 4:11
If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God.
Ok...
Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Why not?
Why not? Because I was responding to specific responses to my specific posts, that’s why knot!
Oh; ok then.
I can’t tell, though, whether you wish me NOT to respond to stuff not directed at me.
“Interfering? I expressed an opinion about charitable speech. How do you know that insults don’t close certain ears to EVER listening to the truth, whether online or offline?As a recovered liberal, I can tell you firsthand that conservative insults made me laugh and further entrenched me in my error. It was loving witness that caught my eye.”
For me it was the exact opposite; it was a debate between a Christian and an atheist, and seeing the duplicitous nature of the atheist’s arguments, I was forced to consider the scriptures. And, probably, you would have been there telling the fellow that he was being too rough with the atheist. As you confessed earlier, it is the Holy Spirit, ultimately, who is effectually calling the sinner.
However, asserting that Christians are unloving or doing wrong, when all they are doing is telling the truth about Mormon doctrine, is just aiding those who believe there really isn’t anything wrong with Mormonism at all. Is it unloving for me to point out that Joseph Smith was married to 30 something women, 12 of whom were still married to other men, and some as young as 14 years old? I’d rather think it is a public service announcement for Mormons who do not know it, and considering how much disinformation goes on in Mormon-circles, very few know it or think of it. Should we tolerate behavior that attempts to hide these facts, and pretends that they do not exist? Let their true believers come and rage and hate and fight with us, but let the Holy Spirit plant the seed and bring growth to those ordained before the foundation of the world.
Can I be as holy as Paul? Probably not.
______________________________________
actually apparantly more so
Paul said he was the greatest of sinners...
None the less, you should compare a copy of the Pharisee Approved Luther Subset of Scripture to a Bible containing the complete Old Testament and see for yourself what is missing.
I recommend the Douay-Rheims Translation availble on-line here, but there are many other translations available on-line and you can even download a complete Old Testament which is what Jesus Christ and the Apostles accepted, read from, and quoted, as well ass being what the Bereans searched without feeling the need to throw any of it in the trash can.
Well, try to understand the context. Because when I wrote something like “attack Voltaire now” it was in the context of a previous exchange where the respondent did not respond to the quote I cited, but instead attacked the author of the quote whoever it was (some journalist, I think.) So I teased him. And in fact no one ever responded to any of the quotes, or tried to challenge them, which I expected and would have welcomed, they only attacked the authors. But then, we are back to the sense of the quote attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt (I say ‘attributed’, because I had seen it attributed to other people.)
The Mormon definition of "god" is not the Christian definition of God. Different identity.
The Mormon identity of Christ is not a Christian one. Different Christ. He's merely the "First born" in Mormonism, and he came into existence AFTER the creation of the universe. This is sinful; this is calling the Creator (John 1:1, Christ pre-existed the universe, was one with God even before the beginning of things) less than His own creation.
The Mormon mechanism for salvation is wholly different from that of Christianity as well.
By these three fundamental distinctions, they are not the same religion. Cannot be.
There is dogma, doctrine, and tradition. I can't remember the order, but churches often disagree on the minor things, but on the most important things (dogma) like the (1) identity of God, (2) the identity of Christ, and (3) the method of salvation, there cannot be a difference, or you're simply not of the same church.
I had it explained to me this way in hermeneutics. I think it's the easiest way to look at it.
Sauron
Sauron
“Well, try to understand the context. Because when I wrote something like “attack Voltaire now” it was in the context of a previous exchange where the respondent did not respond to the quote I cited, but instead attacked the author of the quote whoever it was (some journalist, I think.)”
Didn’t I respond to you quoting a SATANIST like twice? How often do you quote Aleister Crowley and why do you think that aids your defense of Mormonism?
How about putting that in context. Starting with verse 8: "Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins. Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another. As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: whoever speaks, as one who utters oracles of God; whoever renders service, as one who renders it by the strength which God supplies; in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ."
Put in context, the verse you cite is an instruction for those with speaking gifts to take care to speak the word of God. Are you suggesting that it means anyone who feels called to speak has assurance of doing so with the mind and other characteristics unique to Christ?
Do you actually ever go back and read the posts that you have made from an introspective point of view? It is hard to imagine that a loving God could inspire some of the nastiness that is very palpable in so many of your patronizing posts. I would strongly suggest that you pray for guidance and look inside yourself before representing yourself as someone who understands the truth better than others. So much of what you write is more likely to alienate others rather than help them. Do you truly love your fellow man? I say this with all sincerity and not meaning to hurt your feelings.
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
If Aleister Crowley said that sun rises in the East, you’d attack him as well? I don’t defend Mormonism or Catholicism, I only call for tolerance, and use pertinent quotes from whoever. Crowley was right, if not literally. Intolerance reflects the intolerant persons insecurities, fears, not always rational, and a need to affirm their own beliefs, perhaps shaky themselves. Deny it all you want as expected, but that’s Psychology 101 that predates Freud and Jung. Some things about ourselves are revealed when we don’t want them revealed.
Why do you attack Mormonism and Catholicism? What do you gain by that?
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