Ask the Apologist: Answering Shotgun Anti-Mormonism

FAIR Defending Mormonism ^ | 2013 | Allen Wyatt

[svcw]

THX 1138

[Colofornian]

1 John 3:18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

"Love REJOICES IN THE TRUTH" (1 Corinthians 13:6)

IOW, Love doesn't duck from the truth;
It doesn't hide from the truth;
It doesn't ignore the truth;
It doesn't become an "enabler" to falsehood, deception & lies;
It doesn't hide the truth under a bushel;
It doesn't dishonor the truth by either retreating from it, or treating it as if it's ashamed to be acknowledged.

Christians, speak the truth!

Truth and love are a married couple; I wish others would quit trying to divorce them!

[Colofornian]

I don't consider any person to be as holy as Jesus

So what exactly does this have to do with the price of fish?

The writers of the Bible weren't everything "as" Jesus...yet that didn't handcuff God in speaking thru them.

These writers were far from perfect; yet in that moment, God could be perfect thru them.

You speak as if God can't be "perfect" -- at times -- thru people. You speak as if God can't provide discernment for others to exercise tough love. In fact, you speak as if tough love doesn't even exist for anybody other than Jesus (or the apostle Paul) to exercise.

[Colofornian]

My comment wasn't about speaking truth. It was about speaking truth by way of insult, something Jesus cautions against (Mt 5:22).

I said earlier (in different words) that "insult" is often in the eye of the person waiting to be insulted.

Example: Much that is regarded as simple, straightforward Christian theology is "insulting" to the Muslim.

Jesus as the Son of God, for example. Unfortunately, we don't have the "luxury" anymore of allowing a word like "insult" to stand as is; is has to be qualified -- even defined.

[Colofornian]

Me: But we have the mind of Christ. (Per 1 Cor 2)

Does that make us omniscient as he is?

Are you asking me, or the apostle Paul who wrote that via direction of the Holy Spirit?

Do you have trouble with that phrase as is?

And who is claiming omniscience? The writers of the Bible had no omniscience, yet were able to be agents of revelation utilized by God.

What? Do you claim those who proclaim the Gospel/Biblical truth can't be agents of that as directed by God...because you've shrunk "love" to exclude tough love?

Do parents who exercise tough love on behalf of a substance abuse minor engage failing to meet your standards in Mt. 22:37-40 if they don't pass your muster of what = "love" in your estimation?

[presently no screen name]

There are many Mormons who become disillusioned and leave their Church every day and seek salvation somewhere else.

There is ONLY ONE place to seek TRUTH. God's WORD and they have to renew their mind with IT from all the deception they took in from MORMONism.

But my words mean very and they are so easily misunderstood

And they were so easily duped, also. I don't think you 'get it'. It's MORMONism that makes them misunderstand THE TRUTH, the Gospel, the GOOD News. I'm not here to 'understand people'. It's not about them, it's all about JESUS and they don't know HIM through MORMONism. Yet, they think they do and you know some and would rather show respect and set a good example? Why can't your respect for them and example be telling them The Truth?

So the Scriptures you posted, first you must know what LOVE is. It's not love to 'want to get along' just to get along while ignoring the MOST IMPORTANT thing - their destiny and their life here - being free of the bondage of man and their teachings. That's being deceptive and shows more love for yourself not wanting to be on 'the outs' with anyone. What if Paul did that? Or Stephen? Or Jesus Himself? A shame you don't see them as your example to follow.

[PeevedPatriot]

I don't consider any person to be as holy as Jesus

So what exactly does this have to do with the price of fish?

He had the omniscience and the holiness to exercise anger when it was a proper and righteous response. Without his holiness, anger can be a selfish outburst instead of a righteous response. Or it can be expressed in a fashion that doesn't benefit the other. Or worse, harms the other. Jesus, in his compassion for us, gave us instruction on how we could act and be certain of following his will in our conduct with others.

These writers were far from perfect; yet in that moment, God could be perfect thru them.

Agreed. God is perfect in all he does. The converse is my concern. Does man always make himself a docile instrument in God's hands? Is a person who sneers, mocks, and disrespects another acting like an open channel for the Lord? Some may think so, personally I think not. At least not in most situations.

You speak as if God can't be "perfect" -- at times -- thru people.

Then I wasn't clear, was I? I don't question God's perfection. I question whether we humans with our frailties and our selfishness conduct ourselves as the conduits God would have us be.

You speak as if God can't provide discernment for others to exercise tough love.

I'm all for tough love, confrontation, etc when it's appropriate. Of course I think there are many times God calls us to stand up and speak the truth. I'm just not convinced that he asks me to be nasty while I do it.

[Colofornian]

PeevedPatriot to Mormon Teppe: IMHO it isn't just anti-mormons. AntiCatholics do the same thing. So do Catholics who are prejudiced against nonCatholic Christians. When I see anti[insert denomination here] comments on FR, I think of Luke 18:11: "God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are..." Those threads make me cringe. Truth should be able to stand on its own without personal attacks, shouldn't it? Thank you for calling attention to the uncharitable means by which some promote "true" Christianity. Is someone who sneers and mocks showing fruit of the Holy Spirit? Is a belief system that bears bitter fruit supposed to be attractive? Some say Jesus was insulting toward some of the Jewish leaders, therefore rudeness is justified. IMHO it's only justified if one also has the holiness of Jesus and his ability to judge another's soul. Did Jesus ask us to treat each other rudely? Did he insult individual sinners, or did he touch them with love and an invitation to follow him into a changed life? As far as I'm concerned, insults aren't an appealing invitation! Thank goodness in real life people seem very capable of engaging in respectful discussion about differences in faith. Online though it's easy to throw stones from the anonymity of an online screen name, isn't it?

Let's "cut to the heart" here:

PeevedPatriot qualifies his remarks here as applying to "some" -- but leaves the impression these "some" are anybody who posts "anti[insert denomination here] comments on FR."

He then sweepingly references ALL such threads as filled with...
..."personal attacks" [but doesn't provide specific examples]
...is one who "sneers and mocks" -- and therefore is using "uncharitable means" [but doesn't provide specific examples]
...and is therefore declared "guilty" of committing the social breach of "rude...insults" -- even if Jesus did the same thing...'cause, well, hey, Jesus was on a higher level and can obviously get away with that kind of thing.

Well, let's try that out -- this time as applied to PeevedPatriot & Teppe's remarks on this thread.

The Flying Inmans might say,
"When we see anti[insert those who are] anti
-anti-Mormonism -- like Teppe & Peeved Patriot & others like them...
...who to use PP's words -- "are prejudiced against" anti-anti-Mormonism as a system ... then should not some of their comments
"make us cringe"

Have they not insulted the cause of truth?

Have they not treated truth as something married to love? (see 1 Cor. 13:6 and my post found at #362)

Have they not judgmentally "sneered" at us by Teppe labeling us as "distorters" (Post #4) & engaging in "anti-Christian behavior" (minus pointing to specific examples)-- and PeevedPatriot "amening" Teppe with post #73???
...So, unnamed posters with unnamed specific examples are "distorters" Peeved Patriot? You endorse that? (You amened other Teppe comments without being critical of that one)

If you and Teppe are among the "antis" -- anti-anti-Mormonism challengers...and if you insult us...how do you escape your own judgments from falling upon your own head?

Haven't you then self-refuted?

[PeevedPatriot]

PeevedPatriot ...but leaves the impression these "some" are anybody who posts "anti[insert denomination here] comments on FR."

Some means some, not all. If you're looking for argument for the sake of argument, I'm not interested.

He then sweepingly references ALL such threads as filled with......"personal attacks" [but doesn't provide specific examples]

Yeah, I prefer the "if the shoe fits" method. I thought one of the rules was NOT making it personal on the religion forum.

even if Jesus did the same thing...'cause, well, hey, Jesus was on a higher level

If you believe you are capable of conduct on Jesus' level by all means please conduct yourself accordingly. I cannot, therefore I choose to consider the commands he gave us. If you truly have the mind of Christ, you understand why I'm ending the conversation here. Peace be with you.

[Elsie]

I cannot, therefore I choose to consider the commands he gave us.

Can you refuse the advice the Paul gave Timothy?

[presently no screen name]

well said!

[delacoert]

The LDS apologists have apparently disengaged at this point, but there is an outrageous statement in the FAIR LDS article from which the OP derives that deserves attention.

Dr. Bitton’s presentation talks about how anti-Mormons use HISTORY, about whether we really whitewash our HISTORY, and at the end of the day whether HISTORY really has that much bearing on a personal relationship with the Savior.

Excuse ME! Mormonism is based entirely on their own HISTORICAL perspective that their revelation was the restoration the of the New Testament church that had been removed from the earth during a "Great Apostasy" that occurred at the end of the apostolic era.

The suggestion in the quote that "history doesn't have that much bearing on a personal relationship with the Savior" is colossal misdirection - primarily of there own membership, but also of any opportunity for rational engagement.

Classic example of: 1) the dishonesty of Mormon apologetics, 2) FAIR LDS avoidance of rataional treatment of their "theology", and 3) the futility of attempting earnest debate with Mormons.

[elcid1970]

We wish them all a Merry Smithmas!

Mishies tried to send my @ss into Vietnam wearing their holy garmies.

[PeevedPatriot]

Which advice? To rebuke? To silence women and prevent them from teaching? To avoid godless chatter and disputing over words? He covers a lot of territory :) Although I am laity, not a church leader as Paul and Timothy were, I think there's advice for me to take to heart in 2 Tim 2:24-26:

"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

I also appreciate that Paul speaks of "unfailing patience" in the context of rebuke in 2 Tim 4:1-2:

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching."

Perhaps this isn't the advice you inquired about ;) Kindly cite the verse if you had something else in mind. Thanks.

[Colofornian]

From the Mormon attempt-at-apologetics article: ...at the end of the day whether HISTORY really has that much bearing on a personal relationship with the Savior.

Delacoert's response: ...there is an outrageous statement in the FAIR LDS article from which the OP derives that deserves attention. Excuse ME! Mormonism is based entirely on their own HISTORICAL perspective that their revelation was the restoration the of the New Testament church that had been removed from the earth during a "Great Apostasy" that occurred at the end of the apostolic era. The suggestion in the quote that "history doesn't have that much bearing on a personal relationship with the Savior" is colossal misdirection - primarily of there own membership, but also of any opportunity for rational engagement. Classic example of: 1) the dishonesty of Mormon apologetics, 2) FAIR LDS avoidance of rataional treatment of their "theology", and 3) the futility of attempting earnest debate with Mormons.

Great point, Delacoert!

A supposed "restoration" event ("first vision") is all about history!
Supposed gold-plated Book of Mormon is all about history!
A supposed "pre-existence" is all about alleged Kolobian district history!
Joseph Smith as the prime portal of "NEW revelations" is all about history!

Mormon leaders & apologists are indeed, as you say, being dishonest;
Seek to re-route its own & seekers around ANY semblance of rationalism by asking people to forego historical evaluation -- and just "pray" about the Book of Mormon (feelings-based heartburn as the "indicator");
And, yes, no wonder Lds don't want to discuss/debate these findings...They simply want to write this off and blame you as trigger for negativity popping up in their man-made religion.

[Colofornian]

I also appreciate that Paul speaks of "unfailing patience" in the context of rebuke in 2 Tim 4:1-2: "I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching."

Yes, indeed. (For those who are "teachable")

For those less "teachable" by leaders:

9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. 10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. (Paul, Titus 1)

When you get to heaven, PeevedPatriot, would you presume to lecture Paul about the "bad example" he was to Christians throughout history to follow?????

8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9 But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. (Acts 19:8-9)

But, in your pick-and-choose which Biblical passages you'll "prioritize" your actions, I'm sure you'd attack Christian who utilize passages like Titus 1:9-11, Acts 19:8-9, Jude 3, and 2 Cor. 10.

What have you got vs. "contention," PeevedPatriot? Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and URGE YOU to CONTEND for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. (Jude 3)

2 Cor. 10:3-5: 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

[elcid1970]

Madeline Murray O’Hare reminds me of that old saying that there are people who do not believe in Hell until they get there.

The circumstances of O’Hare’s death prove that G-d indeed has a sense of humor.

[Elsie]

The LDS apologists have ....

Now THERE's an oxymormon for you!

Since when does WHINING get equated with apologetics?

[Elsie]

Kindly cite the verse if you had something else in mind.

 

Ok...

 

Here is the letter of introduction (if you will) of Timothy.  Giving the basis for his ministry.

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

 

And here are some things that Timothy has been charged with:

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

 

 

1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.

 

 

1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

 

 

2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.

 

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

 

 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

 

 

 

And, of course, Paul wrote to others about the same subject:

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.

 

 

Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.

 

 

Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

 

 

Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

 

 

Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

 

 

 And, not only Paul, but others writers of the New Testement have chimed in...

 

 

Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

 

 

 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

 

2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

[Elsie]

"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

I am interested in just HOW this would work in light of THESE verses:

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

 

Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.