Posted on 06/13/2013 12:40:22 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
I often tell people that if you lose your way in Reformed Tradition (read Presbyterian) theology, you can always go back to square one, which says, in essence, this: God is sovereign.
Or -- in wording I prefer now because most of us have no experience living under a sovereign -- God is gloriously free.
I thought about that the other day when I read something Pope Francis said in a book he co-authored in 2010 as Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio. Speaking about how he would converse with an atheist, Bergoglio wrote: "I would not tell him that his life is condemned because I am convinced that I have no right to pass judgment."
That, friends, is Reformed Tradition theology. It is up to God to determine who will have eternal life. It is not up to us. Even if you go to Reformed Tradition founder John Calvin's hard-to-follow concepts about predestination (to say nothing of double predestination), you discover that no human being can know for certain who is saved and who is condemned.
This very point once led my friend Kathleen Norris to write this in her book Amazing Grace: A Vocabulary of Faith: "It strikes me that only a French lawyer could have come up with so complex, if not bizarre, a justification for treating all people as if they could be among the elect, the chosen of God."
There’s more to NCR than what you read online. Explore our Ministries special section.
She's right. Even if you buy Calvinism's some-get-saved, some-get-damned-and-there's-nothing-you-can-do-about-it scheme, you don't know who is who, so you have to be nice to everyone on the theory that you may spend eternity with that person.
Which is pretty much what Bergoglio was saying in On Heaven and Earth, co-written with Rabbi Abraham Skorka.
When I read what Bergoglio said on this subject, I had a provocative thought that I was tempted to throw into the lede of this column. Something like this: "Hey, Catholics: Do you know what you've done? You've chosen a Protestant pope."
But the day after I read the pope's words, I discovered that someone had beat me to that conclusion. Writer Jonathan Merritt asked this question about Pope Francis in this Religion News Service piece: "... could the growing popularity (of Francis) among non-Catholics make him 'the first Protestant Pope?' "
Merritt added this: "The combination of the new Pope's concern for justice issues and his conservative theology seems to be appealing to many of these socially conscious Protestants." (I like what Merritt said, though I'm not happy he got the idea that Francis may be the first Protestant pope into print before I did. But let it go.)
Those of us in mainline Protestant churches (Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.) have been long on social justice concerns and short on respect for hierarchical governance structures and fancy ritual.
We pay a price for this emphasis, but it's one we've been willing to pay. And it now appears to many of us that the new pope is intent on moving the Catholic church a bit closer to this Protestant approach.
Perhaps we could meet in the middle. We Protestants will add more ritual and you Catholics can decentralize your governance structure as together we wash the feet of the poor.
I know that sounds a bit facetious, but I'm serious. There is much we can learn from each other, and the learning of it might move us closer to some kind of reunification (at least of spirit) nearly 500 years after Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the cathedral door, thus (inadvertently) starting the Protestant Reformation.
We Protestants don't have our own pope to negotiate a grand bargain with Francis, but if he's really the first Protestant pope, problem solved. All we Protestants and you Catholics need to do to start is pay attention to the times he's standing on our common ground and join him there.
Exactly, D-fendr.
Thank you for your manifest good will. Refreshing.
Did you know that The Catholic Reporter is NOT Catholic?
I wouldn’t give them the time of day.
I have never interpreted the Fatima Prayer as referring to those most grievous (and serial) sinners who wantonly and irrevocably chose to implement the devil’s most grievous intentions while on earth...true agents of Satan...no more capable of genuine repentance than is Lucifer himself. To say that they are — other than solely out of a fear of eternal punishment — sounds like bleeding-heart wishful thinking to me. Gosnell and others on your list essentially passed through the one-way gateway to hell while still living and breathing on this earth.
It has NEVER been Catholic theology that God determines whom's saved and whom's not.
Catholics have always (argued, anyway) that it is The Church that saves and without The Church one couldn't be saved.
Thus; what you say now is a reformed thought process.
Blessings to you too!
Just a note: I guess you meant Catholics and non-catholics
It is God who saves through the Church, which is the body of Christ.
This is the most accurate description. However, you don't hear much about how one is saved because everyone is too busy being worried about offending others who practice another religion or don't practice a religion at all.
If it weren't for the misunderstanding with the Pope's recent, infamous "Atheists are Redeemed" homily, we would have never heard exactly what the Church teaches regarding the necessity of salvation through the Church. And even with that we had the priest who was supposedly clearing up that misunderstanding referring to original sin as *so-called* "original sin".
Is it any wonder that no one knows what the Church really teaches? Many may not like what the author of this article said, but there is a reason why he could write that view of the Pope/the Church.
For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Just a note: I guess you meant Catholics and non-catholics
Children of the same Triune God. The Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
Unlikely.
marshmallow and ebb tide posted the two most recent ones (April 21 and April 29). Hey guys, how did you discover the John Allen articles that you each posted?
The problem with your line of thinking is that it places the burden of salvation on the sinner, not on God. Gosnell or whoever doesn’t have to be capable of repentance on their own, because, if it happens, it will happen through the power of God, not through their own efforts. Remember, sometimes God chooses to step in and change the hearts of even the most despicable men, not because they deserve it, but because it demonstrates the glory, mercy, and sovereignty of God.
Keep in mind that this is not restricted to card-carrying pew-sitting parishioners. The Catechism (Link) puts it well:
"Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.
You can easily see that that deals with the salvation of other Christians outside the membership rolls of a parish, yet not outside the Church (whether they know it or not.)
Saying "Who saves, God or the Church?" is analogous to saying, "Who saves, God or Christ?"
Christ IS God. The Church IS the Body of Christ.
"In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved." (Catechism link)
and
This is not Universalism; it does not require, or even hint, that Hell might be empty or have no inhabitants except Satan and his bodiless hordes of demons.
Hell is a hot possibility for anyone, and a terrifying one.
That is why we pray without ceasing. You for me, me for you, all of us for the most despicable sinners --- save them, Lord, we pray.
"Especially those in most need of Thy mercy."
The Apostle’s Creed tells us, “He descended into Hades (to the realm of the Dead) and opened the portals to the Kingdom of God.
Fortunately, no one is in that situation. Christ founded a Church which will continue on this earth until the earth be no more.
Jesus identifies intimately and inseparably with the Church. In one passage it is called His bride; in other, His body. When Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus asked him, "Saul, why are you persecuting Me? I am Jesus, Whom you persecute."
Amen!
Chapter and verse, please.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.