Posted on 06/25/2013 3:08:30 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
Jeepers, we Christians already believe that God was enfleshed in the body of a virgin, made wine into water, healed the sick, made the blind see, raised the dead, walked on water, died for our sins, was crucified, resurrected, is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven and will come again.
We don't rationalize all of this and most of us don't rationalize the age of the patriarchs, Noah and the whale and so on.
So why on earth would we sow discord among the brethren (an abomination to God, Proverbs 6:19) over a few passages which seem to disagree to our small minded, easily distracted scattered mortal brains?
When God says a thing, it is. That we take on faith knowing that we will have to wait til the next life to understand some things.
“We need to believe all that He has said, but we don’t need to rationalize everything He has said.”
But you’re trying to rationalize away scripture that you seem to simply disagree with rather than believing “all” the scripture. So when you read the scripture that says ‘all that the Father gives to me, shall come to me,” you’re incapable of concluding that those who repent and come were given by the Father? Or what about where it says “those who were ordained to eternal life, believed?” Does the “ordained” part trigger a “does not compute!” malfunction in your brain that we aren’t allowed to believe? And why do you assert that the “believing” negates the “ordaining.” Can’t God ordain someone to believe? Why are you trying to rationalize the idea that ‘all that the Father giveth to me” is negated by “shall come to me”? You keep repeating these silly things about not being logical with the scripture, and giving me your own peculiar logic on why we should do that.
And for WHAT reason, exactly? Just to exalt mankind and falsely claim that we earn our salvation through faith? Instead of faith itself also being the gift of God? Or is it to satisfy some misplaced concept of fairness? even though if this “fairness” were true, it would be seen in the fact that there would never have been a peculiar people known as the Jews, and each person in the world would have been given the same “equal” chance to drag themselves out of hell.
If I may say so, your problem GPH is that you seem to be incapable of realizing that people who don't agree with your soteriologic construct are capable of rational thought or honest disagreement. You take disagreement with you as a sign that the person to whom you are engaging is either dishonest or stupid.
This leads to flame wars. Perhaps if you took the time to read some of Alamo Girl's responses and posts rather than simply searching them for signs of Hersesy, you might actually learn something and you might be able to converse with her without questioning her intelligence, motives, or commitment to Christ.
You are new to this forum. You have to realize that most of us here are veterans of the infamous Cal/Arm wars and we have heard every argument on both sides of the issue and every argument that has attempted to reconcile the dichotomies between God's Soverignty and man's ultimate responsibility.
So put away your Calvinist scripture bricks and talking points as we have heard them all. What we try to do here is not to attack people because we disagree with them, or question their motives because they refuse to think like we do, but to engage in theological conversations and hopefully come to a mutual understanding.
IMO you are trying to proselytize your fellow Freepers into your personal way of thinking rather than engaging in a discussion. You seem utterly frustrated that others can't see the scriptures exactly as you do. Well, my FRiend, we are here to think these things through and if, in the end, you can be persuasive and reach one of the posters or lurkers and convince them of the truth as you understand it, then that's just peachy.
You have accused a long time religion forum poster whom we all love and respect of being incapable or unwilling to understand scripture, but you have given no cogent argument as to either how you came to that conclusion or why we should listen to your opinion on that, or any other subject.
So my advice to you, not that I think you would follow it, is to stop insisting that you have all the answers and start actually listening to some of those whom you may disagree and try to understand their posts before launching into an accusatory response.
“If I may say so, your problem GPH is...”
You spent 7 paragraphs talking about me and my problems, instead of the problems I have raised in your own arguments (or lack thereof). I never questioned anyone’s honesty, nor did I claim that no one is rational besides me. I just said that your arguments don’t make sense. And as far as I can tell, that’s exactly what you were trying to convince me of.
I used to be a rabid anti-Calvinist but my position was changed over the years by several of the Freepers with whom I have engaged in spirited arguments here on this forum. However I can say that there was a time here on Free Republic when the conversations on this subject were very contentious. I myself contributed to that contention and was guilty of the sin of Pride and also guilty of being too stubborn in my own position to actually see what my opponents were trying to say.
Although I now have no beef with the Calvinist position, I still see a dichotomy in issues such as God's Soverignty and Man's responsibility and other issues such as the problem of fatalism and how God cannot be the author of Sin and stuff like that.
May I suggest that you read some of the posts of my FRiend HarleyD, as he has been one of my favorite mentors on my journey from Semi-Pelagian to near Calvinist Reformer.
We have had our battles and we still have them, however I don't ever feel as if my Christian walk or my intelligence has been questioned when we agree to disagree.
I would hope that you, as a Calvinist, could be more of a mentor than a lecturer. We all know the scriptures and the proof texts. Perhaps if you tried to understand the positions of those with whom you disagree and work to explain your position in a more patient and loving manner, perhaps you can mentor some wayward Semi-Pelagian Freeper into a fuller understanding of the gospel of grace rather than simply clubbing them over the head with scripture bricks.
“I used to be a rabid anti-Calvinist”
If you’re not talking about me, you’re talking about yourself, and I honestly don’t care for either topic. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you use these kinds of tactics against your opponents in other threads. Stick to the topic, leave the people out of it. Until then, don’t expect me to give you any hugs or sooth your supposedly hurt feelings just because I asked you hard questions.
It’s far too easy to get drawn into these types of emotional arguments, and it just isn’t worth it. This is truly what probably caused all those “flames” you talked about in that alleged war you claim happened.
Those are indeed kind words P-M.
Yes GPH, P-M’s journey to the Reformed side hasn’t been much different than mine. I’ve just been a little like impatient Peter running ahead of the much more thoughtful John. Now we’re waiting for X (the doubting Thomas of our group) to catch up. He’s almost.......there. I’d love to see X as a Reformed Methodist. Us Reformers are fond of saying everyone will be reformed in heaven . :O)
I’m off on vacation for a week. Hope they have good wifi.
Another newbie (about 4 months)
Does anyone have the link to the religion forum posting guidelines which are a bit more involved than those for the general forum? We also need to get him up-to-date on the protocols.
LOL.
I keep thinking I'll run across some verse I've overlooked that'll make all the pieces fall together.
On the other hand, when it comes to outreach, we don't know who will respond, so they all are candidates. Universal outreach.
Thanks, RM.
GPH, your being very new here on FR, if you’d go to the link at post #130, it would help you to understand how the Religion Forum on Free Republic hopes to operate.
And for the rest of us, it never hurts to refresh our memories.
“And for the rest of us, it never hurts to refresh our memories.”
Indeed!
“Members of religions which are as much culture as belief sometimes take religious debate personally. If you keep getting your feelings hurt because other posters ridicule or disapprove or hate what you hold dear, then you are too thin-skinned to be involved in “open” RF debate. You should IGNORE “open” RF threads altogether and instead post to RF threads labeled “prayer” “devotional” “caucus” or “ecumenical.””
:>)
I've been saying all along - and not only on this thread - that we must not insist that logic (Law of the Excluded Middle, Law of Identity, etc.) is a restriction on, or property of, the Creator of logic.
To those of the "Greek mind" in the following passage, mine is a logical argument for not rationalizing Who God IS and/or His words in Scripture. Which is to say, believe all that is written in the words of God even if we do not yet understand how it could be so.
Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: - I Cor 1:19-22
In the same way as time, which seems so insurmountable to us, is no restriction on the Creator of time (the evening and the morning were the first day).
it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Romans 10: 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Have a beautiful, restful vacation, dear HarleyD!
The Second Law of Thermodynamics (people age, cars rust) gives us a sense that the arrow of time is irreversible. But that is no restriction on the Creator of that physical law.
Indeed, the Creator is not restricted by any physical law He created.
I keep thinking I'll run across some verse I've overlooked that'll make all the pieces fall together.
Might I suggest you get in touch with WHITEFIELD REFORMED METHODIST CHURCH .
They seem to understand what I'm talking about. :O)
Thanks A-G. It has rained every day so far but it has been enjoyable and restful. We run down to the beach when the sun peak through - just long enough to give me a sun burn. :O)
I have my bible, my Far Side collection and my Sudoku. With my M&M by my side-life is good. :O)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.