WHY HAS BOOK OF MORMON GONE THROUGH SO MANY CHANGES SINCE IT WAS TRANSLATED DIRECTLY FROM TABLETS?

Hebrew-translation.org ^ | Chris Solomon

[Boogieman]

Even better are the ones where JS got a direct revelation from “god” saying that so-and-so had better let JS sleep with so-and-so’s wife, or they would burn in hellfire.

If you need any proof of just how gullible humans can be, look no further than the fact that tens of millions of people have followed this second rate charlatan.

[Zakeet]

And the Lord had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. – Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 5:21

One group of changes ... illustrated above ... came about as a result of political pressure. Either that, or Joseph was a false prophet who employed a fraudulent peep stone. Or both.

[ForAmerica]

I get kind of tired of this constant hand ringing about Mormons. They seem to be peace loving people with great family values....do I agree with their religion...no....do they have a right to believe what they want...yes...when they start beheading innocents I will get worried , until then I don’t have a problem one with them!!!!

Blood atonement?
Mountain Meadows Massacre?

[Colofornian]

Most of us don’t care what practicing Mormons believe as long as they don’t under pain of death make all of us live under their rules, cut off the heads of Christians, Jews or make our wives and daughters wear black sheets from head to toe. [RicocheT]

They seem to be peace loving people with great family values....do I agree with their religion...no....do they have a right to believe what they want...yes...when they start beheading innocents I will get worried , until then I don’t have a problem one with them!!!! [Ontap]

#1 Are you both aware that the initial 9/11 terrorist act in this country was committed by Mormons? (Sept. 11 & days following, 1857)

They slaughtered 120 innocents. (IOW, you're "until" or mass-killing scenario already occurred...It's just that event from 156 years ago is "breaking news" to you both.

#2 Don't we take our cultural cue from a certain "Lord" named Jesus Christ? Who are we to follow when it comes to setting cultural priorities? Jesus? or Ricoche and Ontap?

Here's Jesus:

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)

So does Jesus say, "fear the head-choppers?" (No)
Does Jesus say "fear sharia law?" (No)
Does Jesus say "fear those who oppress women?" (No)
Instead, does He say to exercise fear of the One who has authority to cast somebody into hell? (Yes)
So, indeed, our "fear" is on behalf of those who are placing their eternal spiritual lives at risk.

(Besides, others of us actually know how to multi-task in opposing counterfeit worldviews.)

[Colofornian]

I think I read the tablets were lost on the way West.

A few said they saw them in the late 1820s (with "spiritual eyes")

Other than that...nope...the Mormons went West in the mid-1840s. Smith was dead by then. No Mormons saw these gold tablets in the 1830s and 1840s...and "spiritual eyes"??? (C'mon, now)

[GBA]

As near as I can tell, if Gabriel was the source, then I believe he could have been misquoted.

Is it possible that what Gabriel passed along was "adapted" by the one who received it to fit his purposes rather than His will?

We humans are very good at that.

[Hulka]

Agree.

[Colofornian]

From the article: 6) Ether 15:31: "And it came to pass that AFTER he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he struggled for breath, he died." (Impossible)

So...this Book of Mormon character has his head cut off.

His "AFTER"ward response? (other than falling like most with this tender "condition"?)

1. Shiz raises his hands.
2. Shiz falls.
3. "after that"...Shiz THEN struggles for breath.
4. THEN Shiz dies.

[LouAvul]

So if I wrote my own translation of the Bible, you would accept it?

You're trying to evade the issue. You claim the Bible is flawed. I'm challenging you to show me, specifically, what passages are flawed. You people consistently claim the Bible is not translated correctly. Which passages are not translated correctly?

I was required, in the course of my university studies (I hold three degrees, two of which are in theology) to study Greek. I'll be glad to investigate the passages for you.

[Boogieman]

Well, you can check this Mormon apologist link, where they admit there are 105,000 differences between the current book and the original manuscript:

http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2002-fair-conference/2002-changes-in-the-book-of-mormon

Most of their examples don’t seem to be doctrinal changes, but trivial things like changing grammar and punctuation. I don’t think there is any need to make doctrinal changes to the BoM, because they have “living prophets”, who just have to say the word, and it overrules anything in those documents anyway.

[Colofornian]

From the article: Jacob 7:27...Brethren, adieu." (What is a French word doing in a document supposedly written by a Hebrew in Egyptian living in America around 421 B.C.?)

(Why this must have been written in reformed Egyptian-French!)

[Boogieman]

Paul’s not just using a hyperbole to cover every possibility, but he is warning against a real danger, since we know that Satan and the fallen angels can appear to us as glorified angels from heaven. The real angels may never lie, but they do, and they can fool the undiscerning pretty easily.

[NELSON111]

That's correct. I believe that is why he used the phrase "angel from heaven." It's an impossible case...in logic we would call it a logical extreme. It's a preposterous statement to demonstrate the lengths at which one must challenge new gospel.

Paul obviously knew NO angel from heaven would bring a false gospel...but one masquerading as an angel certainly could. Problem is: The human doesn't KNOW it's not an angel from heaven...unless they examine (test) the spirit...and the standard he uses as the test is: What do they say about the Gospel. This, of course, is consistent with 1 John 4:1.

[Colofornian]

The real angels may never lie, but they do, and they can fool the undiscerning pretty easily.

Well, hey, Joseph Smith -- as advised by his Mormon god -- already told how to discern between "good" and "bad" angels:

Per Joseph Smith, you can "test" the nature of a spirit by the handshake ... oh, and by the color of his hair!!!

Smith claimed (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 214-215) to be able to "distinguish" between a "good" angel and a "bad" with this "spiritually offered" discernment:

"By the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by..."

(Isn't it a "grand thing" to know that a demon can't deceive a Mormon thru dying his hair or something like that!)

Lds author Duane Crowther said: "These are the spirits for whom the handshake test of Doctrine and Covenants, section 129, applies." (Life Everlasting, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 247)

And what indeed does this D&C 129 section (which is Mormon "scripture") say about shaking hands to discern spirits?

D&C 129:1-9:
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—...
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

So...THERE YOU ALL go! The "three grand keys" of discerning angels/spirits...per Joseph Smith!

Why, you don't even need to be a Mormon to practice this! (If only Muhammed had known about this test 1200 years prior to that...perhaps Islam would have never arisen!)

As you all perhaps can tell now, Smith had ZERO discernment on how to tell the difference between a demon masquerading as a ghost (Moroni), and a true angel.

[Boogieman]

No, I don’t believe Gabriel gave any revelation to Mohammed. God usually entrusts those kind of revelations to holy men, or at the least, men who receive those kinds of revelations quickly become holy men once they experience the divine firsthand. Mohammed was many things, but he wasn’t holy.

[Boogieman]

Yes, bad enough that he didn’t have any discernment himself, but to top it off, anyone following his advice is now more open to demonic deception as well.

[Alex Murphy]

(Why this must have been written in reformed Egyptian-French!)

And now for an oldie from Alex's Jukebox....

REFORMED EGYPTIAN
(with no apologies to the Bangles whatsoever)

All the old paintings on the tombs
They don't mean what you think they do
This guy named Joseph (oh whey oh)
You'd better listen, he's a Mo

Hugh Nibley, Doctor, BYU
Knows more than Egyptologists
Old papyrus (oh whey oh)
It isn't what they say it is

Elder Bill on the bicycle says
Ay oh whey oh, ay oh whey oh
Reformed Egyptian

The missionaries, with neckties
They ride around and knock on your door
Won’t they be shocked (oh whey oh)
When asked, to find they don’t know more

Joseph says he saw a Personage
Oh wait he now says he saw two
Pick up the plates (oh whey oh)
He had a stronger back than you

All the kids in the mission field say
Ay oh whey oh, ay oh whey oh
Reformed Egyptian

Wear beehive jammies on your back
If you sin too much, you’ll turn black
You must do this, (doncha know)
To avoid Terrestrial Heaven, Jack

If you want to find all the wives
Look on the psychiatric couch
Prozac won’t help them (oh whey oh)
Perfection takes it’s toll, hey! Ouch!

Authorities from the Salty Sea say
Ay oh whey oh, ay oh whey oh
Reformed Egyptian
Reformed Egyptian

[Boogieman]

Don’t you remember in the New Testament, when Jesus told the Apostles “hasta la vista!” before He ascended to heaven?

[Elsie]

WHY HAS BOOK OF MORMON GONE THROUGH SO MANY CHANGES SINCE IT WAS TRANSLATED DIRECTLY FROM TABLETS?

Good question; considering...

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"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."

---Joseph Knight's journal.

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"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.

(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),

"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

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"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,

as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,

and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

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In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."

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"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"

reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881

in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

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In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:

 

 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,

Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12

June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)

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Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:

 

"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"

("A New Witness for Christ in America,"

Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)

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"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."

---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.

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[Colofornian]

Don’t you remember in the New Testament, when Jesus told the Apostles “hasta la vista!” before He ascended to heaven?

(Oh, yeah. I think it was "hasta la vista, baby!" "Manana." Or something to that effect)