Why the Roman Catholic Arguments for the Canon are Spurious

Christian Truth ^ | Unknown | William Webster

[Elsie]

"Have you snapped your mackerel, today?"

Would be seen mostly in SLC...

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What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?

 

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"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."
- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982

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"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

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"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65

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"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196

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"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.

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"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965

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"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

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"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.

[.45 Long Colt]

Kelly was a liberal and a stooge of Rome.

[Gamecock]

Let's not confuse the rhetoric by bringing facts into the discussion.

[.45 Long Colt]

I’m evil for Rome? Or I’m evil for noticing she posts scores and scores of Catholic links every week?

I’m a modern Berean and if you are wise you will be one too. Anyone who compares the things said and done in the name of God to the Word of God will inevitably question Rome. Based on the Bible I know there is no hope for Rome as an institution, but based on that same Bible I remain hopeful for individual Catholics.

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:10-11)

[metmom]

Meanwhile, I’m tired of Protestants bad-mouthing the Catholic Church although it doesn’t bother me because I personally don’t give a rip and I’ve heard it for more than sixty years of my existence and the condemners of Holy Mother Church can go sing the Roll is Called Up Yonder until the cows come home.

Well, obviously you don't have the integrity to be an equal opportunity objector to Protestant bashing by Catholics seeing as you just engaged in it yourself.

Therefore, you just invalidated your complaint.

[metmom]

No, I responded to a comment posted by .45 Long Colt.

[elcid1970]

OK, I know all about the Renaisance Popes, Popes with mistresses & offspring, warrior Popes, got it.

So what’s been shakin’ in the Vatican since 1534, hmmmm?

As noted, Catholic-bashing used to bother me. But now it’s actually gotten kind of fun to listen to the brush-arbor crowd go on ‘bout them Romish Mary-worshippers with their holy water & rosaries & `cursin’ themselves’ (making the sign of the Cross) oh and you know them Catholics is a bunch of drunks.

I’m being awful, aren’t I? Did this entire thread start over the validity of the books of the Apocrypha as part of the Biblical Canon? We sure ran off the rails in a hurry.

;^)

[.45 Long Colt]

“I’m evil for Rome?”

That should have read:

I’m evil for *questioning* Rome?

[D-fendr]

Yes, they always do eventually, but I think this thread set the modern record for speed in running off the rails.

[deadrock]

I was just giving the unchristian examples I have received. Not calling you evil.

[A.A. Cunningham]

William Webster? Your reliance on a person of such low acumen and dishonesty is very telling and based on your own history here, not at all surprising.

[Elsie]

So what’s been shakin’ in the Vatican since 1534, hmmmm?

It missed the big deal in upstate NY in the 1830's?

[wmfights]

Even if the claims of the Roman Church were true with respect to the canon, and they aren't, it doesn't follow that this makes them automatically authoritative in every area and are to be blindly followed any more than the Jews and Jesus should follow the Pharisees. The teachings of Rome contradict Scripture and much of its teaching, such as that on Tradition, the Papacy, Mary, the sacraments, purgatory, in addition to that of the Canon is patently contradictory to much of the teachings of the early Church. More importantly, its gospel message is a perversion of the teaching of the Scriptural gospel.

Thanks for posting this thread. It's great to read the long history refuting spurious claims. However for me, it was the comment at the end of the article which really makes the point.

If we look at the history of the Apostolic Era and the generations that immediately followed it we see that Christians already recognized which books were inspired and which were not. The Muratonian Fragment is one example. The speed at which the Protoevangelium of James was rejected is another. The filtering process was done without any institution imposing it's views.

It is nice to read though that even as the centralized church-state body emerged that there were individuals who placed a priority on truth over institutional imperative.

[CynicalBear]

Thanks for the ping. This should be interesting.

[HarleyD]

How cute. However, William Webster’s article is simply stating the historical view of the Church about scripture and he simply provides the evidence in the church fathers own words. The Glossa Ordinaria, which bears all this out, was used as the standard text of the Church well into the medieval years. Trent changed this when they tried to modify the tradition (as they were so prone to do). To state that the Apocrypha was looked upon the same as inspired scripture is simply a lie. At least it wasn’t looked upon as inspired by the majority of people who were in the know and certainly never accepted by Jerome-who knew better.

I’m sorry if this isn’t the revised Catholic standard version we are so often treated to.

[HarleyD]

Yes I agree. The only reason the Apocrypha was included in scripture in the late 1500s by the Council of Trent is because it supported the Catholic corrupt doctrines such as:

1) Purgatory: 2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

2) Indulgences-Salvation by works: Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin. Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

3) Exorcism: Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.

4) Immaculate Conception: Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.

These are corrupt doctrine but never the less our Catholic friend have been snookered. It is no wonder that no inspired scripture ever referenced the Apocrypha's writings. And since it does reference a Cretan saying, that says something indeed.

[Salvation]

These are not corrupt. Although indulgences and money were connected at one time — the money is not accepted today.

You also forgot the Book of James — faith AND works

The purgatory reference you quote is only one. There are many more — what will you say, when at the moment of your death you discover you are in Purgatory?

The Immaculate Conception was validated through the witness of a young girl, St. Bernadette, to her Bishop. Please read about her.

Speaking in generalities like that can cause trouble, no?

PS. We are not snookered! LOL!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“These are not corrupt. Although indulgences and money were connected at one time — the money is not accepted today.”

... Indulgences - even when not bought - are not Christian.

“You also forgot the Book of James — faith AND works”

... You should read ALL of James, instead of cherry picking a phrase that appears to support works salvation.

“The purgatory reference you quote is only one. There are many more — what will you say, when at the moment of your death you discover you are in Purgatory?”

... There are none...unless you count the books the Romans added...

“The Immaculate Conception was validated through the witness of a young girl, St. Bernadette, to her Bishop. Please read about her.”

... Young girls don’t validate non-Christian truths: Truths not found in the Scriptures. Truths not practiced and not taught by Apostles. If it were true and important, it would have been found in Holy Scripture or taught by the Apostles.

[.45 Long Colt]

“You also forgot the Book of James — faith AND works”

I know you desperately want to believe what your church teaches, but it simply isn’t so. I am not up for this discussion, so I am cutting and pasting a simple biblical analysis. I wouldn’t bother but this is a soul-killing lie foisted on people who don’t know better. It’s a lie from the pit of hell.

Are We Justified by Faith (Romans) or by Works (James)?
by Matt Slick

In Romans it says,

“because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight . . . “ (Rom. 3:20)
“for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law,” (Rom. 3:28)
“For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’” (Rom. 4:3)
“Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . “ (Rom. 5:1)
“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).
In James it says,

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone,” (James 2:24)
“ . . . so also faith without works is dead,” (James 2:26).
Which is it? Are we justified by faith or by works?

Does the Bible Contradict - Itself?

It is a fundamental Christian belief that we are justified by faith. Justification means that God declares a sinner to be righteous. He does this by crediting, by reckoning the righteousness of Jesus to the sinner. This is done by faith. That is, when the sinner puts his faith in the sacrifice of Jesus and trusts in Him and not himself for righteousness, then God justifies him. “And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” (Rom. 4:3). But, if the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith, does it also teach we are justified by works as James “seems” to say? Do we have a contradiction? The answer is no.

Context is Everything

It is erroneous to take a verse, read it without its context, and then attempt to develop a doctrine from that verse alone. Therefore, let’s take a look at the context of James 2:24 which says that a man is justified by works. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8- 13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

Faith and Works

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and [s]as a result of the works, faith was [t]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Notice that James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith, verses 14. He then immediately gives an example of what true and false faiths are. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17). Then he gives an example of the type of faith that isn’t much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith by showing Abraham and Rahab as the type of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20).

This is why in the middle of his section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James says this because the demons believe in God, that is, they have faith, but the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of God’s existence.

Ascentia and Fiducia

Two words are worth introducing here: ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental assent, the mental acknowledgment of something’s existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ. A Christian, therefore, has fiducia; that is, he has real faith and trust in Christ, not simply an acknowledgment that He lived on earth at one time. Another way to put this is that there are many people in the world who believed that Jesus lived: ascentia. But they do not believe that He is their savior, the one to whom they should look and trust for the forgiveness of their sins.

Ascentia does not lead to works. Fiducia does. Ascentia is not of the heart. Fiducia is.

What is James Saying?

James is simply saying that if you ‘say’ you are a Christian, then there had better be some appropriate works manifested or your faith is false. This sentiment is echoed in 1 John 2:4 which says, “If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar.”

Apparently, there were people who were saying they were Christians, but were not manifesting any of the fruit of Christianity. Can this faith justify? Can the dead ‘faith’ that someone has which produces no change in a person and no good works before men and God be a faith that justifies? Absolutely not. It is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons: “We believe Jesus lived.”

Notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.

Therefore, we are justified by faith. That is, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by faith as is amply demonstrated by Romans. However, that faith, if it is true, will result in deeds appropriate to salvation. After all, didn’t God say in Eph. 2:8-10, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

[metmom]

Great explanation.

Thanks for that.