Posted on 07/26/2013 2:04:17 PM PDT by NYer
You know many people say that the Rosary is great for maintaining purity in mind and body. Mary was a Virgin and has always been thought of as a model of virtue.
I’m sure the publishers knew exactly what they were doing when they put Mary on the cover of this prayer book for purity in teenagers: http://www.catholiccompany.com/pure-faith-prayer-book-teens-p1003016/
Friday, July 26, 2013 6:01:58 PM · 56 of 57
Mr Rogers to NYer:
” The evangelical missionaries ignore scripture:
Thus I aspire to proclaim the gospel not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on another’s foundation, but as it is written: “Those who have never been told of him shall see, and those who have never heard of him shall understand.”
Romans 15:20-21”
Friday, July 26, 2013 6:40:36 AM · 18 of 50
NYer to Buckeye McFrog
So...you attack protestants for evangelizing Catholics, yet...
” For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?”
If I hadn’t lost my link list and am currently rebuilding I would post the LONG list of converts to Catholicism.
I think we can start with St. Paul.
Nope, I always start with the words of Jesus Christ himself.
bfl
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I was referring to your list of converts to Catholicism; the first (famous) example would be St. Paul. I am discounting conversions prior to the Descent of the Holy Spirit; this is somewhat arbitrary. What did you mean?
I can’t explain an experience, but we should get our doctrine from the Word of God, not experience. I certainly would never trust feelings and experiences. The Bible says “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Feelings and experiences can seem right, but you can’t trust your own fallen mind to judge them.
The Bible also tells us to “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” God never intended His people to worship Him apart from the use of their minds. Real spirituality begins with a precise understanding of truth. His Word is objectively true. Use your mind to measure all experiences and feelings against the Truth, against His Word. We are to be like the Bereans in Acts 17 who were “more noble” because “they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.” As a result “many of them therefore believed.”
In Ephesians 6:11 Paul says, “Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.” What is our armor? It consists of the belt of truthfulness (not merely knowing the truth, but being committed to it), the breastplate of righteousness, the shoes of the gospel of peace (confidence that we have made peace with God), the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation (confidence in our security in Christ), and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. None of those hints at any secret technique. Rather, they speak of clear understanding and a solid commitment to biblical truth and holiness.
When we resist Satan by taking our stand in the armor of God’s truth, he flees. James 4:7 says, “Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” Peter said, “Resist him, firm in the faith” (1 Peter 5:9, emphasis added)-firm in the Christian faith, which is the revealed truth. This is objective truth, not some unseen cosmic force. Since Satan is a deceiver and a liar, we can successfully resist him only by knowing and obeying the truth.
Paul said, “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:3-5). Again, we don’t battle Satan with magic words and imaginary forces; we rely on the power of His truth as it brings even our thoughts captive to our Lord. That is genuine and ultimate victory over satanic forces.
No matter how Satan attacks, the solution is the same. We stand in the truth. We don’t need to learn hidden strategies to fight Satan. God’s truth is the supreme weapon against the father of lies (cf. John 8:44). Only when we know the truth and commit ourselves to obey it will we stand strong.
To measure the efficacy of praying rosaries and saying Hail Marys we can’t rely on our experiences or the claimed experiences of another. If you search the Scriptures like a Berean you will find that Mary is presented in a favorable light, but the unrestrained praise and sentimental effusion common among Catholics are no where to be seen. There isn’t even a hint that Mary participated in the redemption, so she can’t be a mediatress of all grace. To the contrary, the Bible teaches Jesus is the one redeemer and one mediator.
I am curious as to where this Bible came from that you quote.
The Hail Mary:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee (Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary (Not explicitly, but Luke 1:46-48)
Mother of God (Luke 1:43)
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death (Protestants ask people to pray for them. If you raise the question that Mary is dead, please prove it. If you retort that death is a fact of life, is the virgin birth any more believable?)
Another foundation of the Rosary is that Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth. (Rev 12)
And as for Mary’s ability to intercede for us? John 2.
Jesus and Mary attend a wedding and the hosts run out of wine, a serious problem. Mary asks Jesus to do something. His response is that his hour has not yet come. Mary’s response is to turn to the servants and tell them to do whatever Jesus asks. Jesus proceeds to do the exact thing Mary asks; even though by his own profession it is not yet time.
We also have the question of whether Mary suffered at the Cross. This can be inferred since her son had been betrayed, beaten, humiliated and nailed to the cross for everyone’s sins. What mother would not suffer seeing her son go through that? Then there is a little problem of Simeon’s prophecy. In addition to saying Jesus is destined for the fall, he also tells Mary that her own soul will be pierced. Finally when Jesus was on the Cross, he declared that Mary was now mother of John, the only Apostle to never abandon Jesus.
Mary did participate in the Redemption. Her only objection to conceiving Jesus was that she had no husband. She said that she will carry out the Word. She also saved the couple at Cana by requesting that Jesus help them, even though his hour had not yet come.
The unrestrained praise is due to Mary. In a society where promiscuous women were not tolerated, Mary agreed to have a child without the guarantee that she would have a husband. No promise was made to her, but she put her faith in God.
The Rosary is not a secret technique; it is not an unseen cosmic force; it is not a hidden strategy. The Rosary is routinely prayed publicly by Catholics. Discovering it is easy. The only thing it requires is Faith, which Mary had.
You quote a passage that says when you stand firm against the Devil he flees from you. When I pray three Hail Marys, lustful thoughts depart from me. If that is not the Devil fleeing, I am uncertain what would be. One can lose their firmness and invite the Devil to try again.
The passage you cite with the Bereans is interesting. They did not have a New Testament (or any books of it). The scriptures cited must therefor be the Old Testament. They had to trust that what Paul was saying was true and had happened.
The quote from Proverbs 14:16 is also interesting. The Catholic Church is an enormous organization that has existed for 2000 years. One word that does not fit this would be “man” in the singular.
You ask me to to measure all experiences and feelings against the Truth. The Truth maintains that lustful thoughts are wrong. How one would view porn or masturbate without said thoughts escapes me. When I pray the Rosary, keep the Divine Office, and say Hail Marys when suffering temptation, I do not suffer these temptations or am able to banish them when they arise. I am uncertain how else to interpret this.
You didn’t want an honest biblically informed answer. You trust yourself and the traditions of wicked men, not Scripture.
If that the best you can do? I pointed out places in the Bible parts of the Rosary come from. Just because you were not able to derive it on your own through your own examination, does not mean it is not there.
You have failed to explain how I cannot trust my experience that the Devil flees before the Rosary. I suffer significantly less temptation and commit sinful acts when I keep it faithfully.
You have pointed out where things in your superstitious chants come from, but you ascribe meaning they don’t have. I don’t have time today for a lengthy biblical analysis of saying Hail Marys. But would it matter? Do you really care biblical fidelity or are you more in defending Rome and your experiences? Anything I say will almost certainly be countered by some Catholic source. God has to open your eyes to the truth. I can’t teach you a thing.
So for now let’s agree to disagree. You keep on praying and chanting about and to this “holy Mary.” Nevermind the Bible teaches that the Lord alone is holy, nevermind that the “Queen of Heaven” was the false God of the pagan Babylonians (see Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19, 25), nevermind Christ forbid empty repetitive prayer (Matthew 6:7).
“Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” (Revelation 15:4)
He alone is holy!
I have seen no reason to believe that Rome stands in contradiction to biblical fidelity. In fact the Catholic Church compiled what we call the New Testament.
Part of the Rosary is “Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.”
There is an element of the Rosary that is frequently ignored re Matthew 6:7. The short Rosary is composed of 5 decades, and 4 short Rosaries comprise a long Rosary. Each decade of the Rosary corresponds to mystery of Christ.
Joyful Mysteries:
1) Annunciation to Mary
2) Visitation to Elizabeth
3) Birth of Jesus
4) Presentation in the Temple
5) Finding in the Temple
Sorrowful Mysteries:
1) Our Lord agonizing in the Garden
2) Our Lord beaten at the post
3) Our Lord humiliated
4) Our Lord carrying the cross
5) Our Lord Crucified
Luminous Mysteries:
1) Baptism
2) Wedding at Cana
3) Proclamation of the Kingdom of God
4) Transfiguration of Our Lord
5) The Last Supper
Glorious Mysteries:
1) The Resurrection
2) The Ascension
3) The Descent of the Holy Spirit
4) The Assumption of Mary
5) The Coronation of Mary
During the decade corresponding to a particular Mystery, one is supposed to meditate on the Mystery. What one meditates on is largely personal choice; for example I sometimes meditate on what appear to be contradictions between two Bible verses relating to that Mystery.
Claiming the Rosary is repetitive is true. Claiming it is empty is not.
Of these 20 Mysteries, 19 are found in the Bible; Glorious 4 is not explicitly in the Bible. 17 are explicitly about our Salvation or an aspect of God; Luminous 2, Glorious 4 and 5 do not appear (on their face) to be about our Salvation.
The Queen of Heaven in Jeremiah is by nature opposed to God. Honoring her is by default turning away from God. However, Mary is not opposed to God, in fact she turned to God.
The woman in Rev 11 has a crown. Crowns are associated with Royalty. Since this person is a woman, she is either a Queen or a Princess.
Believe as you will. It is your life.
And Rome did not put together the New Testament!
Who did then? If you say God, where was it written to include those books and not others? And how was this Testament preserved in its current state for a millennium before the rise of Protestantism, who made no changes to the New Testament and few to the Old one.
Your error is believing the Roman church dates back to Peter. Apostolic succession is a grand lie. The New Testament developed just as the Old Testament did—over time and by consensus of the saints.
Excuse me, but god supposedly designed things so that there can never be any virgin mothers.
Luke 1:34 and Matthew 1:20. By denying the possibility of a Virgin Birth, you are denying God’s absolute power over all creation.
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