Posted on 07/29/2013 7:55:48 AM PDT by Gamecock
Oh really? Here is the Greek text with English equivalent under.
Acts 6:8
Stephanos de plērēs charitos kai dynameōs epoiei terata kai sēmeia megala en tō laō
Stephen moreover full grace and power did wonders and signs great among the people
Do you see any word in there that can be translated “faith”?
Now here is the same plErEs charitos that John 1:14 uses for Jesus.
John 1:14
monogenous para patros plērēs charitos kai alētheias
of an only only-begotten with a father full of grace and truth
Notice the same usage of “pleres charitos”. I don’t know what source you used but you had better check again.
This is really only a possibility in the fevered imagination of anti-Catholic zealots. It simply doesn't exist in Catholicism or Orthodoxy.
Very profound. Please clarify...I promise to take your comment to heart!
Are you saying that demons do not seek to subvert our faith? Or even that only anti-Catholics think that such might exist?
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Every Catholic prays this creed at every mass.
With every Rosary we pray the Apostles Creed:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.
No follower of an Apostolic Church, routinely professing these creeds, is going to make the mistake of worshiping the created, Mary, instead of the Creator, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Anyone who claims otherwise is fooling themselves.
How can they be distinguished, then?
The Greek grammar shows how.
Kecharitomene is a Greek perfect, passive, participle, which could literally be translated "having been graced," since the root of the word is "charis", which means grace. Ephesians 1:6, which refers to Jesus Christ, uses the aorist, active, indicative echaritosen, meaning "he graced."
See the difference? Mary, passive voice, she received grace; Jesus, active voice, "He graced." This is due to the fact that Jesus is a Divine person; Mary is a human person, a creature and handmaid.
In Luke 1:28 "Kecharitomene" is nominative or titular, since it follows the greeting "Chaire" ---"Hail [name or title] --- thus the name would automatically be capitalized in English translations.
The unique feature of Kecharitomene is that it is in the Greek perfect tense, denoting that the state of grace began in past time, by a completed action (hence "fully" accomplished), whose results continue in the present. A suitable translation to denote all these features might be "Fully-Graced One." The Greek passive voice denotes that Mary received the title from an outside source, in this case, ALmighty God.
The New Testament uses the Greek "pleres charitos" ("full of grace") to describe Jesus (John 1:14) and Stephen (Acts 6:8), but these usages are not as specific to time, agent and continuity as Kecharitomene.
Like all of the name changes in the Bible, it indicates the person's status as seen by God, the person's predestined giftedness in order to be equipped to play their role in God's plan:
It's the only place in the Bible --- the only place in all of Greek literature ---where this word is used as a form of address. It's unique. It doesn't make her equal to God (passive voice: it's been done unto her) and not identical to what's said of Stephen, because it's
This unique neologism Kecharitomene is the best Greek word that could have been invented by Divine inspiration to indicate Mary's sinlessness, her being equipped to play her role as the natural source of Christ's human nature, His flesh: human, yet untainted by sin. No other Greek formulation could have conveyed it all.
None of that proves that Mary was immaculately conceived. It only shows that Mary was full of grace at the time the angel spoke to her. Trying to extend that “full of grace” back to her conception is simply a man made concept.
Don't flatter yourself that I have an hour to digest a long post of yours.
If you build up that respect and then ask me based on our relationship...well then OK.
But don't just do a data dump on FR and expect anyone to read it.
The Trinity is a man made concept. It is not at all clear from the plain sense of scripture. Everything Christians believe is based at least in part on interpretation of scripture. The debate is not about what is or is not in scripture but whose interpretation is correct.
He posted two creeds and essentially said that if you stick to the creeds faithfully everything will be okay. It wasn’t that long of a post. I followed it pretty good. I had to clear my throat over the Catholic Church part but I understood it.
If you can’t digest the simple Nicene and Apostles Creeds then you are correct, I can’t help you.
Very good post.
No, it's a Biblical concept. I notice, in some Christians, a strange incuriosity about why such a beautiful, unprecedented, unrepeated, intricate term would appear in the inspired text. To mean --- what?
I didn't call it proof, by the way. I would call it evidence.
Will you want to face him and answer for that?
Do you really not read and study scripture? Here are some passages you can start with.
Jesus Christ claimed to be God, the Creator of the cosmos, the one and only way by which we can enter into Heaven.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." When Jesus said, "I am the Aleph and the Tav," He was saying I am the Word, (or logos, written Word) that was in the beginning. In the first line of the Torah, in the first line of the first verse in Genesis, He was there with God! He was in the beginning and all things were created through Him.
1 Timothy 1:16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Not at all clear? It’s pretty clear to a Holy Spirit filled Christian.
Seem “immaculate conception” was the result of making unbiblical declarations and then having to explain them. Can’t back down from the imputation of sinless Mary without losing face on other issues. Pride wins.
And it certainly isn’t.
>>I would call it evidence.<<
You can call it whatever you want but the rest of scripture contradicts what you believe. The beliefs you posit are not supported by scripture but are man made concepts born from mostly pagan sources.
I don't build a theology around one or two verses, nor do I approach scripture with a theological prejudice.
If the Romans 5 verses you cite teach universal inherited sinfulness, then they also teach universal salvation, and you don't believe that. If, however, they teach that those who follow the way of Adam die and those who subscribe to the way of Christ live.
Rom 3: All have sinned! Look at it; it's a verb...sinned. The all being addressed did it: sinned. Are you claiming that all unborn humans commit sin? Maybe they lust and just cannot verbalize it.
Silliness aside, of course Paul's argument in the first chapters of Romans is that Jews and Gentiles need a savior alike. And here he quotes the Psalmist that God looks down on the earth and see that everyone "turns aside," "deceives with their tongue," curse with their mouth," etc. Now think about it...do you really think what's under consideration here is unborn babies doing all these things? Or do you think it more reasonable to understanding that what's being talked about is those who DO THOSE THINGS LISTED?
Sin is lawlessness (1John 3:4), not a genetic disease.
I noticed you didn't address the passages I posted, as I did yours - you just posted others and claim they disagree.
Therefore He would not be qualified as a substitutionary atonement for the sin of all mankind, hence no real Gospel message exists.
Reductio ad absurdum,...wrong basis for His sinlessness.
As opposed to the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Mary.
I believe I understand your position. Unless Jesus was born not simply through a woman but in every sense by a woman he could not be fully human. The sanctification of Mary is vital for this. It is Christ choosing her and entering into her for the purpose of being born through her.
The genetics throw me. If Jesus had no father his genetic composition would be 100% Mary. But he was male, not female. I can accept that God can do all things but cannot get past the position that Jesus was God incarnate, not half human, half God.
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