Posted on 08/01/2013 8:41:18 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
Ditto. It's by the renewing of our minds DAILY and the casting down of old teachings and a preset mindset on the things of God that we grow.
We grow in understanding and in the Ways and Thoughts of God through the reading of His Word.
"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." Luke 2:52
If a SINLESS man grows in wisdom - how MUCH more us! The fact is we will grow if we hear and obey The Father like Jesus did BUT we MUST renew our minds. Jesus didn't have to because He was SINLESS. He didn't have wrong teachings to content with nor an evil preset mindset. We renew our minds in order to gain HIS KNOWLEDGE, His Ways, His Thoughts ALL through HIS WORD.
Praise GOD for HIS WORD. It's ALL about Jesus - what JESUS The Word says to us and what JESUS Our Savior has done for us!
Jesus said he was to be raised up on the THIRD DAY (Luke 9:22), so was Jesus raised up on the third day or on that day when he spoke to the thief?
Please. Do you know where JESUS was the first day??
Why don’t you believe The Word as it is written? The ‘repented thief’ had no problem doing it - and he only heard ONE sentence of it.
So was Jesus raised up on the third day as he said (Luke 9:22) he would be or on that day he spoke to the thief?
If you do say so yourself, but your attempts to negate such what is invalid, and in which you are ignoring things that refute you.
Solomon’s words are part of God inspired Scripture and mirror what God told sinning Adam, you will return to the dust..period.
Solomon’s words are indeed part of God inspired Scripture, but we must rightly divide the word of truth, (2Tim. 2:15) as to what is God's truth, not all of what God records is His doctrine. Thus, among other examples, is the counsel of James to Paul that almost got him killed, (Acts 21:22-24)
And here, if you regard Eccl. as a doctrinal nook like Romans, then as i showed you, you must agree that "There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God. " (Ecclesiastes 2:24) "Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labour the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun. " (Ecclesiastes 8:15)
But which is contrary to such texts as Rm. 14:17; 1Cor. 8:8, and as with the dead knowing nothing, it reflects judgment based upon natural perception. Indeed, 9:5 must be read in context, which states
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. " (Ecclesiastes 9:4-6)
Thus according to this judgment, the living are better off than the deceased, and the dead not only do not know anything but they have no rewards for ever, but all such are in this life, and which he further expresses .(vs. 7-10) Such is the perception of the natural man, and it is contextually obvious that this is what he is expressing.
However, in the NT the elect in this life are not better off, as here we groan, (Rm. 8:23) and death is what" is gain," as they indeed have a reward, indeed "a great recompense of reward" (Heb. 10:35) forever, and is something to look forward to, and living here cannot in any way be said to be better, contrary to Solomon judgment.
Scripture interprets Scripture, and the NT reveals the OT, and using Eccl. 9:5 cannot negate what other texts state.
The general resurrection is most relevant as until that point no one had come from the memorial tombs
First, despite what the Watchtower false prophet may teach, there is no "general resurrection," but two resurrections, "both of the just and unjust," the "resurrection of life", and the "resurrection of damnation," (Acts 24:14; cf. Lk. 14:14; Jn. 5:29) and which are separated by a thousand years:
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. " (Revelation 20:5-6)
Secondly, some, rather than being dormant, did indeed come from their tombs after the resurrection of their Lord after "the way into the holiest" (Heb.9:8) was provided, testifying to having been loosed to go into glory:
"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. " (Matthew 27:51-53)
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? " (Ephesians 4:8-9)
and to combine Abraham’s bosom with Paradise is something the Scriptures do not do. Nor do the Scriptures hint that Abraham’s bosom was a temporary stop for OT saints.
Scripture interprets Scripture and says more than what the Watchtower teaches, and which texts i provided but are ignored, for as "the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing," (Hebrews 9:8) "for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins, " (Hebrews 10:4) thus OT saints could not be with God upon death, contrary to NT believers. But "the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom" when Christ made the atonement for our sins, (Mt. 27:51) and He descended first into the lower parts of the earth and led captivity captive, and thus as affirmed in the NT, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Thus, rather than remaining in Sheol till the resurrection, the Lord said to the contrite criminal, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. " (Luke 23:43) (See more on this later on) As the Lord did not go to glory that day, but first descended first into the lower parts of the earth, and as Abraham's bosom was not heaven, this supports Abraham's bosom as being paradise.
In addition, as shown but ignored, Lk. 16 does not qualify as a parable, regardless of your assertion.
Those like David or Job who died before Christ would just have to wait in death till Jesus resurrected them. Hence the vision of Moses and Elijah was just that, a vision, not a pulling of them from Abraham’s bosom to a mountain or a resurrection from the dead of them.
Another example of a forced interpretation, for the text nowhere says this was a mere vision as in a dream but that they were actually "with Him in the holy mount," (2Pt. 1:8) and there Moses and Elijah with Christ is what they saw, "optanomai / optomai," which is the same word which used to denote seeing a real being in many places, (Acts 20:25) including seeing the resurrected Christ (Mk. 16:7; Lk. 24:43; Acts 1:3) - which we dare not make into a mere vision - . " (2 Peter 1:17-18) Thus Peter wanted to make literal dwellings for them.
In contrast, you have men who are supposed to be dead and cognizant of nothing having a conversation with their Lord!
Even the dying thief recognized any hope of remembrance would be “when you come into your kingdom”, not instantly at death.
"Even the dying thief .." So now a criminal's understanding of eschatology defines what the Lord meant by to day? Instead, if the criminal was hoping for mercy in a future day then that makes the specification of "to day" fitting, as rather than the future, the Lord told the criminal that he would be with Him that day in paradise, and thus not have to wait for a future acceptance.
And the attempt to place the comma after "to day," as if He needed to distinguish it from tomorrow, as He does in Lk. 13:32,33, is absurd. In contrast to a future hope for mercy, "to day meant just that, that "to day you will be with Me in Paradise," which is where he is now, while the last trump he and all deceased believers will receive a glorified body, as their Lord did.
Those events of Rev. 6 were yet to come when Jesus went forth to conquer in the midst of his enemies. (Acts 2:34,35).
The events of Rev. 6 are before the resurrection of the just, some of whom are preaching on the earth, (R. 7) and likely the remnant [who] were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven" (Revelation 11:13) also belong to the elect. And it is before the Lord comes to fight against Babylon (Rv. 19) with the resurrected saints and the 1k reign of Christ and the judgment of the damned. (Jude 1:14,15)
Luke 16 is a parable.
It is not for the accurate reasons i gave.
Bless the Lord for your gracious spirit.
YES. Jesus said it.
Why do you question what JESUS said? That's the question you have to ask yourself.
Since this seems to be the most salient part of your comment I’ll deal with it.
No, I’m not ignoring anything but attempting to stick with a central point here. If you are in error here then the rest falls too.
“Thus, rather than remaining in Sheol till the resurrection, the Lord said to the contrite criminal, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. “ (Luke 23:43) (See more on this later on) As the Lord did not go to glory that day, but first descended first into the lower parts of the earth, and as Abraham’s bosom was not heaven, this supports Abraham’s bosom as being paradise.”
You’re describing a kind of Purgatory Lite. Your narrative has Jesus being resurrected and going into the lower parts of the earth on the day that he spoke to the thief whereas Jesus said he was going to be in the grave(hades or sheol) for three days.
Is this where Abraham’s bosom and paradise are? In the lower parts of the earth?
What day did Mary go looking for Him and she thought HE was a gardener as she didn’t recognize HIM?
Earlier you asked “.. Do you know where JESUS was the first day??”
It appears we can agree that he was dead in his grave awaiting resurrection on the third day. Thank you.
Spot on.
No we don't agree. I know better than that. He wasn't awaiting anything. You obviously think Jesus did nothing from the time He was placed in the tomb until His Resurrection
What was he doing while dead?
Jesus "Preached" to the souls in Paradise and then led them into heaven ("When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” Eph. 4:8; Psalm 68:18). The three days and three nights was in fulfillment of the Sign of Jonah. The thief that died the same day as Jesus DID go with him to Paradise and then up to heaven with the rest of the deceased redeemed.
How could Paradise be a "purgatory lite"??? There is no suffering going on there contrary to the other side of Hades where the lost DID and do suffer. When Jesus died on the cross and was buried, he descended into Paradise (AKA, Abraham's bosom) and led the souls out of that temporary holding place into Heaven. Paradise was where ALL the souls of the redeemed resided until Jesus opened Heaven for them. These souls of the redeemed are NOW in heaven abiding with Almighty God and will receive their glorified bodies at the Rapture when Jesus descends from heaven WITH them and they and us will rise up to meet the Lord in the air with incorrupt bodies and so shall we "ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4).
As far as "be perfect" is concerned, the way it is much used in Scripture for man is not that of absolute perfectly consistent Christian character, for Noah was perfect in his generations, (Gn. 9:6) as was the heart of David, (iKg. 15:3) except in the matter of Bathsheba, (1Kg. 15:5) and Hezekiah claimed to have walked b4 God with a perfect heart. (2Kg. 20:3) But i think it means, as with “sin no more” in Jn. 8 and sinneth not in 1Jn., that of high holy overall consistent character, with a heart that does not want to sin, and any sin being out of weakness, not willfulness, and repentance following conviction.
I think Christ was made perfect in the sense of being tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. And we are to be perfect as the Father is as in showing grace to our enemies. But yes, complete perfection is a goal of the Godly. And i have far to go.
As far as falling away, the warning are there for believers, and 1Pt. 1 instructs on how to assure one will not, but God also plays for keeps, and thus "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. " (1 Corinthians 11:32)
The implication is that if God did not chasten them unto repentance they would be condemned with the world, yet God works to bring the disobedient to repentance, the warnings playing a part, and if necessary, heavier means, and the elect among the church give heed.
An exceptional teacher in most ways, but here he is wrong if he thinks the main audience is lost Jews and not believers.
I would suggest that the title of the book should give an indication that this book was written to the Jews.
Tradition? The book does not title itself, and certainly does not name Paul as its author (me thinks it was Apollos) but while it obviously was written to Hebrews, this does not mean it was unbelieving Hebrews, and page after page evidences it is exhorting immature (by the higher standards of that day) believers to hold firm to the faith. I left out cp. 13, which continues this,
"Let brotherly love continue. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. " (Hebrews 13:1-3)
"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. " (Hebrews 13:7)
If you are trying to convince me that one must do something to keep their salvation, I'm very sorry but that is completely works oriented. Christ did it all.
Christ did do all that was necessary to provide salvation by faith, and all you need to do in believe, but faith in the Lord Jesus effects obedience towards its Object, relative to the knowledge of His will. Thus Reformers themselves taught that one begat the other, and thus,
Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]
The Westminster Confession of Faith states:
Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love. [Westminster Confession of Faith, CHAPTER XI. Of Justification. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/wcf.htm]
But if faith appropriates saving faith and works of faith testify to it being that kind of faith, then what does deciding to believe another gospel or living contrary to such a faith do (such as one in 1Tim. 5:8)? Gal. 5:1-4 and Heb. 3 + 10 seem to warn of forfeiting what faith appropriates.
Perseverance of the saints denies the elect can die in such a state, and that such that do were never regenerate Yet these warning are clearly written to believers, and it is hard to deny the fruits of some who did die in apostasy. Some see these warnings being used to turn believers back to faith, which the elect do, and which the chastening of 1Cor. 11:32 does, lest we be "condemned with the world."
However, the warnings are there (as are assurances that God works to bring repentance), and you know you are a believer if you heed them and repent as needed.
Why should it?
There is no SIN any more!
Who NEEDS to when the gummint will supply your food (show up at a school), your medicine, your entertainment and your lodging. (Lots of 'homeless' being enabled by do-gooders.)
I've heard about that...
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
Amen
Ps. 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in Sheol, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
I'm not sure what the dispute is. The OT saints can not be in heaven prior to the crucifixion ICor. 15:22-23 makes it clear there is a specific order that believers will follow.
ICor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (23)But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
FWIW, I've enjoyed following the discussion.
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