Posted on 08/09/2013 7:45:54 PM PDT by ebb tide
Pope Francis discovers charismatic movement a gift to the whole church
By Francis X. Rocca Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- During World Youth Day celebrations in Rio de Janeiro, July 23-28, many worshippers in the crowds could be seen swaying from side to side, arms raised in the air, wearing rapt or joyous expressions on their faces.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicnews.com ...
The whole continuing binding revelation thing is par for the course.
From the IOR to the gay lobby: Pope Francis tells all on flight from Rio to Rome
Vatican Insider - LaStampa ^ | 07/29/2013 | Andrea Tornielli
On the Charismatic Renewal Movement
“At the end of the 70s, early 80s, I couldn’t see them. I once said they must confuse liturgical celebration with samba lessons! Then I got to know them better and I was won over. I saw the work that they did and I said mass for them in Buenos Aires every year. I think movements are necessary; they are a gift from the Holy Spirit. The Church is free; the Holy Spirit does what it wants.”
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/gmg-26831//pag/1/
We call them Frannies here, as we are home to Franciscan University of Steubenville. Our church is where most of them attend Mass. I’m fine with thier family sizes; however, they mainly live in government subsidized housing and they use SNAP and WIC. Some of the smaller families take in foster children for extra income. My husband is the fire inspector so he has to inspect the foster homes. As a staunch Catholic, he’s not impressed. They do their arm waving thing and that bothers some of the older parishioners, and thier every-other-week takeover of music bothers me a bit. I don’t need guitars and drums to make me feel cool to be in church. Rant off, as I’m going to take something for this heartburn that’s making me so grouchy tonight.
Just goes to show how relativistic and vapid this Pope is. Being no fan of the Catholic religion, but certainly no fan of the Charismatics/Pentecostals, and having once been one of their member, I assure you there is nothing about this movement that is a benefit to anybody. It is wholly focused on emotionalism, and layers upon itself one bad doctrine upon another. Indeed, their number one manifestation, “speaking in tongues,” is not only not biblical (tongues in the Bible were an actual language), but is pure madness, with people literally flaying around as they get “baptized by the Holy Spirit.”
These same phenomena I have seen repeated by stage hypnotists, and even confessed frauds like Marjoe Gortner, who even described the emotional game he would play with these people when he would lay hands on them, allegedly “healing” their ailments and other such things. I’ve seen Occultists use them as well. ‘Psychic vampires,’ self proclaimed, getting people to fall over or even to pass out from across the room.
Most of it, I would say, is purely psychological. In other cases, it is diabolical. But in every case, it’s something that does not engender any kind of love for the truth or encourage real thinking.
Pope Benedict XVI
Pope Benedict XVI, addressing two charismatic groups, affirmed and promoted the charismatic emphasis of the young movements in the Church on October 31, 2008:
"The ecclesial movements and new communities, which bloomed after the Second Vatican Council, are a unique gift of the Lord and a precious resource for the life of the Church. . . . They should be welcomed with trust and valued in their various contributions. . . . The charisms arise as visible signs of the coming of the Holy Spirit, not as a historical event of the past, but as an always living reality. . . ."
"The Spirit himself, soul of the Church, acts in her in every age, and his interventions, mysterious and efficacious, manifest themselves in our times in a providential way. The movements and new communities are like an inrush of the Holy Spirit in the Church and in contemporary society. . . ."
"One of the positive elements and aspects of the communities of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is precisely the importance given by them to the charisms and gifts of the Holy Spirit and their merit lies in having reminded the Church of the actuality [of these gifts] . . ."
The Pope emphasized the value and the importance of the new charisms in the Church, whose authenticity is guaranteed by the willingness to submit themselves to discernment from ecclesiastical authorities.
Prophecy | Deliverance | Tongues | Teaching
Healing - Miracles | Discernment
Apparitions | Messages
“’speaking in tongues,’ is not only not biblical (tongues in the Bible were an actual language)”
What in the world are you talking about? Tongues are biblical. Tongues can be an actual language, but they are gifts of the Spirit.
“These signs will accompany those who believe ... they will speak new languages” -Mark 16:17
“Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues...” -1 Cor 14:5
“how ... vapid this Pope is.”
How many languages do you speak? How many advanced degrees do you have? You could benefit from a little humility.
“there is nothing about this movement that is a benefit to anyone”
You don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve personally seen one person healed of a bad back situation by a charismatic priest. There are people who have been healed by charismatics and there are before and after x-rays and tests to prove they’ve been healed. A number of charismatics are very gifted and bring great good to others.
I’ve never been a big charismatic but was in the movement a bit during the 90s. Like Pope Francis, I was put off a bit by liturgical abuses I saw in Charismatic Masses and a few charismatics who seemed to think the Holy Spirit guided them to something contrary to the Magisterium. There have been excesses in the Charismatic movement and a need for it to be purified. But to say it’s not Biblical ... What do you do? Throw out 1 Cor 13 and 14?
I find it odd and a bit disconcerting to see Pope Francis refer the Holy Spirit as “it”, while Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI clearly uses “He” in his comments.
Quoting Pope Francis: The Church is free; the Holy Spirit does what it wants.”
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/gmg-26831//pag/1/
Quoting Benedict XVI: “The Spirit himself, soul of the Church, acts in her in every age, and his interventions, mysterious and efficacious, manifest themselves in our times in a providential way...” October 31, 2008 (Taken from Salvation’s post #6 in this thread)
“You don’t know what you’re talking about.”
Of course I do. I was a Pentecostal and highly involved with this stuff. For years I witnessed “Prophets” give false prophecies, wicked and evil people speak in “tongues,” amongst a host of other things. I’ve watched people work themselves up to emotional fervor, become convinced about this or that particular prophecy, confirm it through various spiritual signs, and then the prophecy and their expectations are utterly destroyed. I’ve witnessed people who did nothing but go from one emotional high to another, who in the end got broken and through all of that didn’t know the slightest thing about the Gospel.
There is no significant difference between what the Charismatics do, whether it’s Catholic or Protestant, and what Oneness Pentecostals do, who deny the trinity, or Wiccans, or Satanists, or “Psychic” vampires, or Stage Hypnotists.
“There are people who have been healed by charismatics and there are before and after x-rays and tests to prove they’ve been healed. A number of charismatics are very gifted and bring great good to others.”
And Benny Hinn has people who swear up and down that he cured their cancer, but that certainly doesn’t change all his false prophecies and heretical teachings, right?
Do you know what is biblically supposed to happen to a false prophet for even just ONE false claim?
From what I have seen at the SCRC and among charismatics I know, they can be some of the best defenders of orthodox Christian beliefs. They may actually read the Bible, papal encyclicals, lives of the Saints.
I’m not charismatic, but I’m a fan of their Christian Joy. Some may be loopy. Many are solid.
“(tongues in the Bible were an actual language)”
No one knows what the “tongues of angels” sounds like but they must exist if Paul mentioned them(when speaking of the importance of love(charity in some translations). I know of a case where a Jewish person, versed in Hebrew had been visiting a Pentecostal congregation and heard glorious praises to God being offered up in Hebrew. Real languages can often be heard in such Pentecostal or Charismatic services. The issue becomes where languages are spoken and there is no one to interpret...Paul stated it was better at that point for those who had been given tongues to pray in those languages privately so that “there would be no confusion”.
“bad back situation by a charismatic priest. There are people who have been healed by charismatics “
Look at your choice of words....who does the healing?
“No one knows what the “tongues of angels” sounds like but they must exist if Paul mentioned them(when speaking of the importance of love(charity in some translations)”
More than likely he was using a metaphor for eloquent speech. As Barnes says in his commentary, “The language of angels here seems to be used to denote the highest power of using language, or of the most elevated faculty of eloquence and speech. It is evidently derived from the idea that the angels are “superior” in all respects to human beings; that they must have endowments in advance of all which man can have.”
But this is just a pitiful explanation for why people only hear stories about other people speaking in actual languages, though they never do it themselves, and why they speak no actual language at all when they practice the “gift”. If what you were doing was speaking a language, it would have some observable syntax, certain set patterns. What we see in tongue-speak is actually just glossolalia, not the language of alleged angels, or Hebrew, or Japanese, or some obscure language in Africa, simply waiting to be translated by someone with the proper gift.
I’ve experimented with this myself, by the way, speaking false tongues to get a interpretation, and this has never failed.
By the way, I’ve heard that Hebrew story, or something quite like it. You’re more than welcome to provide a transcript of your tongue-speech, however, and with any luck I might be able to recognize it, or someone else will, for whatever language it may be. Provided it isn’t the convenient Angelic language. In which case I still have old transcripts I made of mine, and we can compare to see if it’s the same Angel language, or maybe a dialect like in the northern part of heaven, or something.
Thank-you Salvation for that wonderful information.
....Plus those who are in this movement can also be the very best faithful Christians/Catholics as well.
Good for Pope Benedict Emeritus to give his blessings to this movement.
God Bless both Pope Francis and Pope Benedict Emeritus.
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.
9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.10 “Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.
13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
It can be easier to say "it" than "He".
Having once expressed myself like that before on these pages, a few people then seized upon that to dismiss out-of-hand what else I was sharing witness of.
Where are those critics now? They were Roman Catholics, seeking to silence me (as usual). Now a pope uses the same terminology. Should all that that man says, now be shunted aside for (perhaps too casually?) using the word "it" when referring to the Holy Spirit? Will they run to lecture that man, as they did me, telling a pope there is no way he could know what he was talking about in the slightest, since he used the word "it" in referring to the Holy Spirit?
IIRC, my own usage was regarding receiving or under-going baptism of Spirit, resulting in there being a persistent presence of the Spirit living within a person. I said something along the lines of get "it". For doing so, I was attacked--- and everything else I was sharing stomped on, then figuratively thrown in the garbage.
Without the Holy Ghost, we are severely limited in what we can understand of the things of God. The fleshly mind (our natural minds) can hardly at all comprehend Him otherwise.
Paul equates “tongues of men and angels” concretely, not metaphorically(at least as translated). Not everything in the Bible is metaphorical and Barnes just gives his “whatever” opinion!
What’s the matter...the thought that the Holy Spirit just might empower someone directly and dynamically to speak with tongues of man and angels, preach with boldness, prophesy, heal the sick, give you a “metaphorical” chill?!!!
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