Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Pope Francis on 10 Reasons Why People Reject the Church
brandonvogt ^ | August 16, 2013 | Brandon Vogt

Posted on 08/17/2013 2:06:44 AM PDT by NYer

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 151-200201-250251-300301-336 last
To: xone

“It is always about numbers”

I don’t see how protestants can justify killing other protestants in any circumstances. Does Jesus say, “kill innocents because other people kill you?


301 posted on 08/19/2013 2:54:57 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 292 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
how protestants

So Luther didn't kill them, did he? Of course not.

Does Jesus say, “kill innocents because other people kill you?

Nope, just as He doesn't countenance the Catholics under the jurisdiction of the church killing them. Or that blockades work.

302 posted on 08/19/2013 3:04:48 PM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 301 | View Replies]

To: xone

“So Luther didn’t kill them, did he? Of course not.”

Yes, he did. He killed Anabaptist heretics.


303 posted on 08/19/2013 3:15:00 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 302 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
Your argument assumes that: someone hasn’t considered the other position and rejected it because the Catholic position is superior.

It appears that YUOU are assumin' that HE is assuming.

Not that it matters.


You have implied with this statement that you HAVE studies the other side's point of view and found it inferior.

Would I be correct in assuming that?

304 posted on 08/19/2013 3:30:19 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 300 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
I don’t see how protestants can justify killing other protestants in any circumstances.

Dang!

I can't either; with such a vague implication that you assert here.

305 posted on 08/19/2013 3:31:24 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 301 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
I don’t see how protestants can justify killing other protestants in any circumstances.

Dang!

I can't either; with such a vague implication that you assert here.

306 posted on 08/19/2013 3:31:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 301 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
"Your argument assumes that: someone hasn’t considered the other position and rejected it because the Catholic position is superior. That’s why your argument is terrible."

No. My argument states accurately that you must support whatever your magisterium comes up with to stay in good standing.

Therefore, to remain roman, you are wasting your time to actually examine the meaning of the text, because if you realize there is a better explanation of meaning, you still must believe what you were taught. You can repeat what you are taught and no more. Once the magisterium speaks you obey... unless it it like birth control and abortion, where many roman catholics in practice ignore what it taught.

307 posted on 08/19/2013 4:49:00 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 300 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Therefore, to remain roman, you are wasting your time to actually examine the meaning of the text, because if you realize there is a better explanation of meaning, you still must believe what you were taught. You can repeat what you are taught and no more. Once the magisterium speaks you obey... unless it it like birth control and abortion, where many roman catholics in practice ignore what it taught.”

Then you can cite the catechism where it says that this is so.


308 posted on 08/19/2013 4:55:31 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 307 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
"Then you can cite the catechism where it says that this is so."

I am really surprised you do not know this.

"The faithful therefore have the right to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason.79 They have the duty of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church."

As I added, you could go awol. Or pursue the truth and follow it wherever it leads.

309 posted on 08/19/2013 5:01:43 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 308 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
Add to that this statement...

"2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 "

310 posted on 08/19/2013 5:03:38 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 308 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
And of course the claim of infallibility...

"2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed. "

311 posted on 08/19/2013 5:05:17 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 308 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

So are you saying that the Pope is infalliable in everything he does?


312 posted on 08/19/2013 5:07:42 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 311 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge

“So are you saying that the Pope is infalliable in everything he does?”

Obviously not. I think the “pope” is never infallible in any age on any topic. Nor is any church of any denomination.

God, however, is always infallible.

Good try.


313 posted on 08/19/2013 5:11:47 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 312 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Obviously not. I think the “pope” is never infallible in any age on any topic. Nor is any church of any denomination”

Are you saying that the Catholic church believes that the Pope is infalliabile in everything he does?


314 posted on 08/19/2013 5:15:09 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 313 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge

“Are you saying that the Catholic church believes that the Pope is infalliabile in everything he does?”

No. I’m saying you have a DUTY to believe what your magisterium teaches. No more and no less.

Having said that, I understand your arguments on this thread do not go beyond what you were taught - they cannot. It is the lens through which you view things. You have no choice, if you are to remain a roman.

OR

You can seek truth and follow it no matter the cost.


315 posted on 08/19/2013 5:34:53 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 314 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“I’m saying you have a DUTY to believe what your magisterium teaches. No more and no less.”

On faith and morals, yes. That’s an important caveat.

“It is the lens through which you view things. You have no choice, if you are to remain a roman.”

One does not assume a duty voluntarily unless one is convinced that the cause is just.


316 posted on 08/19/2013 5:53:59 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 315 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
One does not assume a duty voluntarily unless one is convinced that the cause is just.

Nice statement; but the CAUSE is NOT what is being discussed here.

The IMPLEMENTATION of the cause is.

317 posted on 08/19/2013 6:45:18 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 316 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
One does not assume a duty voluntarily unless one is convinced that the cause is just.

Nice statement; but the CAUSE is NOT what is being discussed here.

The IMPLEMENTATION of the cause is.

318 posted on 08/19/2013 6:45:22 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 316 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

“Nice statement; but the CAUSE is NOT what is being discussed here.”

The assertion is that the obedience to a lawful authority is unjustified.


319 posted on 08/19/2013 6:56:51 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 318 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge

“One does not assume a duty voluntarily unless one is convinced that the cause is just.”

Learning the Scriptures is a daily, lifetime discipline that progresses as you mature. It cannot be outsourced. Your call.

In any case, you were convinced based on limited knowledge and now you must dance to the tune that is played. If you claim you dance willingly to whatever music is played, again, your call.

My point was that if you decide the music is lousy, you cannot remain a roman christian. You must accept whatever tune is played.


320 posted on 08/19/2013 7:08:01 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 316 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Learning the Scriptures is a daily, lifetime discipline that progresses as you mature. It cannot be outsourced.”

Discipline implies that there are teachers who have the authority to correct you in your understanding.

“In any case, you were convinced based on limited knowledge”

Again, one would not choose a duty unless one believed that the cause was just. I did freely choose the Catholic church. Arguing that my choice was ‘not free’, ‘uniformed’, isn’t going to convince anyone.

It’s a terrible argument. Once again - you are assuming that ‘only those who make the same decision as you are informed’.


321 posted on 08/19/2013 7:14:18 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 320 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
He killed

Luther killed them, with a sword, knife how?

322 posted on 08/19/2013 7:18:55 PM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 303 | View Replies]

To: xone

http://www.religionnews.com/2010/07/23/lutherans-gathered-in-germany-have-asked-for-forgiveness-for-the-16th-centu/

“We remember how Anabaptist Christians knew suffering and persecution, and we remember how some of our most honored Reformation leaders defended this persecution in the name of faithfulness,”


323 posted on 08/19/2013 7:22:29 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 322 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge

“Discipline implies that there are teachers who have the authority to correct you in your understanding.”

We are commanded to study to show ourselves approved. We are commanded to love God with our “whole mind”. Outsourcing this is not Biblical.

“Again, one would not choose a duty unless one believed that the cause was just. I did freely choose the Catholic church. Arguing that my choice was ‘not free’, ‘uniformed’, isn’t going to convince anyone.”

No one I see claimed you were not free or were uninformed. I clearly said you now have no choice but to toe the line unless you are willing to leave.

“It’s a terrible argument. Once again - you are assuming that ‘only those who make the same decision as you are informed’.”

No. I assume being fully informed has no practical value to you now that you made your free choice. You must believe whatever they teach you, or switch to Democrat :-)


324 posted on 08/19/2013 7:22:49 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 321 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge

You said, Luther killed 40 and provide zero proof.


325 posted on 08/19/2013 7:39:59 PM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 323 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
The assertion is that the obedience to a lawful authority is unjustified.

It is?

Just WHICH reply contains that assertion?

326 posted on 08/20/2013 4:58:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 319 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
Arguing that my choice was ‘not free’, ‘uniformed’, isn’t going to convince anyone.

I, for one, am not questioning your freedom to choose; but am VERY interested in the information you looked at before COMING to this decision.

And, not ONLY the information, but how you analyzed, and dismissed, any contrary information.

327 posted on 08/20/2013 5:00:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 321 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion
"2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed. "

Problem is, doctrine does not save so the Catholic church cannot have *saving truths*. There is no such thing as *the faith*. That's putting faith in their faith, not faith in Jesus. Only Jesus saves, not a church, not *correct doctrine*, not sacraments, not adherence to the catechism or creeds.

To repent, believe, and confess is all we need and those cannot even really be separated for someone who truly believes.

328 posted on 08/20/2013 5:14:07 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 311 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

I see your supporting evidence from the CCC was never acknowledged.


329 posted on 08/20/2013 5:16:11 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 310 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge; Gamecock
I don’t see how protestants can justify killing other protestants in any circumstances. Does Jesus say, “kill innocents because other people kill you?

Can you say *Inquisition*?

I don’t see how protestants Catholics can justify killing other protestants in any circumstances. Does Jesus say, “kill innocents because other people kill you?

And yet we still see Catholics calling for a return to the Inquisition.

Link to the *Hall of Amazing FRoman Catholic Quotes*

http://www.freerepublic.com/~gamecock/

330 posted on 08/20/2013 5:23:02 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 301 | View Replies]

To: metmom

“Catholics calling for a return to the Inquisition.”

Where?


331 posted on 08/20/2013 7:24:00 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 330 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

“I, for one, am not questioning your freedom to choose; but am VERY interested in the information you looked at before COMING to this decision.

And, not ONLY the information, but how you analyzed, and dismissed, any contrary information.”

Well, let’s see. It wasn’t a short term process. It took about 2-3 years or so. I was quite ignorant of Rome and as I did my research I realized that much of what I believed the Catholic church taught - was a distortion and incorrect.

I started from the same place as Menno Simons and the issues that justified breaking away from Rome.

http://www.mennosimons.net/ft002-renunciation.html

You can find it here.

You might be shocked at what his justifications were and the hows and the whys. The gap is really not all that much between Menno Simons and the Catholic church. Much has been made of the difference - as I examined further, I realized that at Trent - the Catholic church had taken Luther’s words at face value. Rather than actually speaking to the anabaptists - they relied on Luther’s calumny and that it colored greatly the Catholic understanding of anabaptists.

In short - not only was Luther responsible for hanging and persecution of his fellow brothers and sisters, he was responsible for calumny.

The other part - is that I saw that I had been lied to by many folks I trusted about what the Catholic church believed. So I endeavoured to start from the beginning. What did the Church teach and why - what does the catechism say, and why? Why does the Catholic church state. I made a list - rather long, of the doctrinal issues between me and the Catholic church. And I went through them one by one. That winter I receieved Mere Christianity, and tore that book apart.

I went to RCIA for one year just to find out more about the catholic church. That summer, after the classes, I received Scott hahn’s Rome Sweet Home. Scott Hahn was able to explain to me much of Catholic doctrine in a way that made sense. It all fits together.

The last hurdle ended up being the very first one - rebaptism. I went to RCIA the next year and worked on that one issue exclusively. I prayed for guidance and God helped show me what I had read but never understood. The Nicene Creed states - “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. Rebaptism denies this doctrine - in asserting that baptism itself can be invalid.

Simon’s argument rests or falls on silence- nowhere does it say that rebaptism is permitted.


332 posted on 08/20/2013 7:38:15 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 327 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
I realized that much of what I believed the Catholic church taught...

While, I, OTOH, believe much of what the RCC teaches!

It's all them things they tend to DO that really have NO solid biblical base that bothers me!

333 posted on 08/20/2013 12:20:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 332 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

“It’s all them things they tend to DO that really have NO solid biblical base that bothers me!”

Right, things like sola fidae, sola scriptura, believers’ baptism, women’s ordination etc. Plenty of doctrines that are found no where in scripture.


334 posted on 08/20/2013 12:38:19 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 333 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge

LOOK!!!

Over THERE!


335 posted on 08/20/2013 7:28:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 334 | View Replies]

To: NYer

sounds about right.


336 posted on 08/23/2013 5:05:17 PM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 151-200201-250251-300301-336 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson