Thanks for the ping to roamer’s post. He said something QUITE profound, in my opinion, something so profound I had to comment, and indeed applaud. It’s rare we reach this level of discussion here. I feel I must at least try to capitalize on this moment, fleeting as it may be.
He said, “If one is to dispute the concept of sola-scriptura, and that the inerrant Word is the sole and final authoritative proof, then one must no doubt meet that burden with a proof that is equally inerrant and utterly bullet-proof. The evidences as they are before me do not meet that standard in the least.”
Which in of itself is a perfectly FINE quality to demand. We SHOULD demand such a high level of proof. Such a high level of veracity. We should, because it’s only truly human to demand such. The “problem” though is two fold:
What consititues “proof” and how could that be “equally inerrant” as Scripture, to the Protestant? (or to anyone?)
This is the Catholic claim: the “proof” of the Church’s claims ultimately don’t rest on “history” alone or “Scripture alone” or “Tradition alone” or even the “Magisterium alone”. It RESTS, in each and every authentically human being’s EXPERIENCE.
It’s truly the challenge Jesus gave to his first disciples centuries ago, “Come, follow me”, “come and SEE”. You have to see for YOURSELF, to get the “proof”, ultimate, OBJECTIVE proof (in every sense of the word “objective”) that the Church is as she claims.
That’s the reason for the Incarnation. THAT’S why God chose to become Man. He could have just snapped his fingers and “saved” everyone. Or “damned” everyone. Or poofed the Universe out of existence and started over. Or ........anything......... But He CHOSE to come as a MAN, to relate to us on OUR level, and so, this is the reason for the Church.
This is why the Church exists, to continue to offer to the world Christ, on Earth, CHRIST, as a physical (albeit mystical) Body, His CHURCH. God doesn’t change. He hasn’t changed His PLan for Man’s Salvation from the very MOMENT Adam fell. He has constantly and consistently chosen to work IN the world (not OF the world but IN it) to reach DOWN to Man, to work with Man on Man’s level, even though He never “HAD” to.
He chose to flood the world, and saving a man (Noah) from it, instead of snappng the world out of existence!
He chose to lead his people out of Egypt, THROUGH a desert, instead of snapping his fingers and transporting them to the Promised Land.
He chose to use a boy to slay a giant, when he could have done so Himself, and saved David the hardship.
He, AGAIN, chose to BECOME Man so that Man could RELATE to Him, without loosing their original humanity, but actually by being FULLY human.
He hasn’t changed this Plan. So the only way we will ever really “find” God is by acknowledging that God’s PLan for all of us is to be as fully HUMAN as Adam was, as His Son was and IS, and that’s the only way anyone will ever be convinced, is to embrace the one way He has chosen, yet AGAIN, JUST like those examples above, to relate to us and reach DOWN to us on our, pitiful level: through The Church.
I’ve said before and I’ll say again: these “debates” only get one so far. You’ll never find the “proof” of Catholicism here, not ultimately, not completely. That complete proof rests in your own experience, your experience founded in and guided by an objective , unbiased heart.
You (the reader) shouldn’t even take MY word alone for this, again you need to see for yourself, be changed by the Holy Spirit YOURSELF, to be fully convinced.
I’ve also said before and I’ll close with this: If everyone would just come to the Church without their preconceptions, without their already preformed judgements, their malformed experiences (malformed via misinformation from other people with agendas, from personal experiences with evil people in the Church), just come with an OPEN heart (”heart” in the Biblical sense which includes the mind and spirit), you WILL come to a knowledge that the Church’s claims are true.
It’s truly the most authentic form of “independence”. It’s independence, it’s FREEDOM, from EVERYTHING *OF* this world, every influence, every prejudgement, every bias, everything. It’s the most authentic “personal relationship with Jesus”.
You will come to this knowledge not because of what the priest says, or the Pope, or any apologetic work or what your friends say (or don’t say) or what ANYONE ELSE does or says, but you will because of your OWN EXPERIENCE.
Which is truly the most objective evidence of all. The alternative is to be a slave to someone, or something, either someone else’s opinion of the Church, or someone else’s reading of the Bible, or someone else’s opinion about the priesthood and Tradition, or be a slave to your own emotions, emotions based on horrible experiences from people in the Church, and not on objective reality. Not obeying objective reality, leads one away from the Church; it is that simple.
Because ultimately, this is what resistance to the Church is based upon, and this fact is on constant display in these fora. EVERYONE who denies the Church eventually uses the “evidence” of ANOTHER PERSON’S opinion, about all (or any) of the above, to “justify” their own belief about the Church. (Sadly some Catholics seem to do the same to justify their “faith” too, but this doesn’t detract from my point, in fact my pointing this out too should bolster it)
NO, “proof” is not ultimately found in these “debates”. It’s found in your own experience with the Lord in the Church.
Why has no Protestant/anti-Catholic here ever taken me up on this challenge? Why haven’t you at least TRIED to see if I’m right (or wrong)? How do I know this is the case? Do I read minds? No, I don’t; I only go on the fact no one has ever said to me, “47, I tried what you said,I HONESTLY TRIED to go to Mass, without any preconceptions, without any biases against the Church, no matter how “well informed” or “educated”, but it didn’t work for me. Despite my child like heart, I didn’t find God there”. No one has ever said that in the 10 years I’ve been here, that’s how I know.
But go ahead, have this post deleted for “mind reading” if you want; and we will remain in the MORASS of these “debates” even longer, instead of making real, HUMAN progress.
Christ HAD to become a man. The penalty for sin is death. And in order to pay for our sins, He HAD to become a man and die our death for us. No snapping of fingers could have satisfied the perfect justice that God demands. The only thing that could satisfy a perfect God is that a man/His Son take the sins of the whole world as our payment for our sins. And our justified death because of our sins. There could have been no other way.
I’ve said before and I’ll say again: these “debates” only get one so far. You’ll never find the “proof” of Catholicism here, not ultimately, not completely. That complete proof rests in your own experience, your experience founded in and guided by an objective , unbiased heart.
As I see it, these two statements are interconnected. Both are referring to the individuals personal EXPERIENCE. The problem I have with it is that man and man's experience can NEVER be objective. In order to be objective, one needs to be able to stand outside the situation and look in, not having an vested interest in the situation.
When it affects us personally, it automatically precludes objectivity.
Another issue I have is that I do not believe that a completely objective viewpoint will by default lead to Catholicism.
It is not Catholicism which saves, it is Jesus.
One must come to HIM, the one who died for him for the forgiveness of sins, the one whom our offenses are against, the only one who can forgive the offenses we committed against Him.
Now, some may argue that the best way to come to Him is through the Catholic church, but Jesus Himself warns against looking for eternal life in anything but Himself.
John 5:37-40 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Scripture shows us our need for Christ, it leads us to Him, it helps us identify Him, it shows us how to obtain forgiveness from Him, and it shows us how to grow in Him.
Paul told us that the Law was given to lead us to Christ.(Galatians 2)
He hasn’t changed this Plan. So the only way we will ever really “find” God is by acknowledging that God’s PLan for all of us is to be as fully HUMAN as Adam was, as His Son was and IS, and that’s the only way anyone will ever be convinced, is to embrace the one way He has chosen, yet AGAIN, JUST like those examples above, to relate to us and reach DOWN to us on our, pitiful level: through The Church.
On the contrary, it is through Jesus Christ. If it were through the church, then there would have been no need for Jesus to come in the flesh to fully identify with us. So you did just contradict yourself there with your previous statements explaining why Christ came.
You will come to this knowledge not because of what the priest says, or the Pope, or any apologetic work or what your friends say (or don’t say) or what ANYONE ELSE does or says, but you will because of your OWN EXPERIENCE.
Again I have to disagree because our experience is subjective, and the only truly objective source is the word of God.
Putting the test of truth on subjective experience is no different than what the Mormon's do with their test of the *burning in the bosom* to verify or validate their theology. An objective source is needed, something that is true and inerrant and dependable beyond any chance of being invalidated, a rock as it were.
That would be the Word, the Word that became flesh. The word that was also transcribed so that we could know the word Incarnate.
If one truly believes that Scripture was Holy Spirit inspired, God breathed, then there is no other source to go to because NOTHING else can compare to the dependability of *God said....*
OK, let me be the first.
I don't find God by going somewhere.
As you may or may not know, I was raised Catholic but left the Catholic church during my teen years. When I hit rock bottom some years later (and not the living on the streets, drug dealing kind of rock bottom, but definitely the end of myself) I started talking to God. Now, it was certainly not the kind of praying that I had been brought up doing, but just talking to Him as I would talk to another person. I did not at that time start going back to church, that came later.
But one day, when I just didn't know what else to do, I prayed and said to God "God, if you can straighten out this mess of a life of mine, you can have it. I'll do anything you want me to. I'll even become a missionary and go to Africa (The absolute most desperate thing I could think of), because I'd rather be happy doing what You want me to do than keep on going like I am."
Now, this was 35+ years ago and I still remember it like yesterday. And nothing immediately happened. No lightning bolts or anything, but things began to change. *I* began to change. I noticed a difference in my interests. I was no longer interested in going to bars with my friends, for example. Not cause I felt like I had to, but I it just didn't appeal to me any more.
My work situation changed and I ended up working with a very vocal Baptist who shared Christ with everyone he met. And while I had never heard anything like what he told me, I somehow *KNEW* that what he was telling me was true. (Looking back I can now see that as the Conviction of the Holy Spirit)
Finally he explained what *accepting Christ* was about, asking Him to come and live in your heart as an act of your will, that He wouldn't force His way in, and when I heard that I thought "THAT'S IT!!!!! That's what I want!"
Standing there, I prayed and said to Jesus, *I don't know what it means to *ask you into my heart as an act of my will, but I will You in.*
Not exactly your typical *sinner's prayer* but Christ came in that day and THAT change was dramatic and instantaneous.
I immediately thought, *I need to start going to church*, *I need to start giving*, *I need to buy a Bible*. Nobody told me I "had" to do those things, they just happened.
So I started going to church where I was raised. I went BACK to the Catholic church. And I went for months and the longer I went, and the more I read the Bible, the more dissatisfied I became with the Catholic church and the more discrepancy I found between Scripture and the teachings of the Bible.
After a while, another co-worker invited me to his Evangelical church and I went and was amazed at the difference I saw there, and vacillated between the two for a couple months and then finally made the break with the Catholic church.
And you know what? I still have not found a church which has doctrine with which I agree 100%, but that is not important, because church is not the bedrock of my relationship with Christ.
It's a great place to worship, hear good preaching and teaching, and enjoy the company of other believers for encouragement, but the foundation of my faith is Jesus, what I can learn about Him through Bible reading and study, and most importantly, prayer, simply spending time talking with Him.
Church plays a role in my life, but it is secondary at best. And it's going to do no good if I don't nourish that relationship MYSELF.
It would be no different than if I tried to survive by eating once a week. I need to do it every day, several times a day.
Christ in me, the hope of Glory. My body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. I don't need to go somewhere to find God or meet Him. I can do it as I'm going for a walk, driving the car, waiting in the doctor's office, I can do it any time in the sanctuary of my heart and mind.
You left out an extremely important point...how is the Catholic Church proved to be THE church? Because they say they are? No, there MUST be something, some way that "objective" people can know that the teachings the Roman Catholic Church espouses actually ARE the truth. That would be something ABOVE the Catholic Church that points "objective" people to it. All you got is your own say so. Catholicism attempts to use Holy Scripture to assert her authority but then crashes when she asserts she is ABOVE Scripture by claiming to be its writer, compiler, preserver and distributor. Quite a circular argument.
Why has no Protestant/anti-Catholic here ever taken me up on this challenge? Why haven’t you at least TRIED to see if I’m right (or wrong)? How do I know this is the case? Do I read minds? No, I don’t; I only go on the fact no one has ever said to me, “47, I tried what you said,I HONESTLY TRIED to go to Mass, without any preconceptions, without any biases against the Church, no matter how “well informed” or “educated”, but it didn’t work for me. Despite my child like heart, I didn’t find God there”. No one has ever said that in the 10 years I’ve been here, that’s how I know.
Of course you won't take the word of those who DID come from a Roman Catholic Church upbringing and left it, will you? What kind of biases or prejudices draw someone OUT of the Catholic Church when it is all they have ever known? You are convinced that anyone who is truly open and objective with a "child like" heart won't be able to resist being convinced the Catholic Church IS the real deal? Well, there are many of us who really DID leave for a more genuine and Biblical Christianity. When I read for myself the gospel in Scripture (i.e., John 10:27-30), I recognized immediately that what I knew deep in my heart had been missing in the Catholic Church's gospel was finally found. It was as simple as that! I realized that the "church" is the people - not a monolithic, monarchical organization - the people of God who belong to Him, who hear His voice and who know Him and follow Him. He knows them and saves them and they shall never perish nor be snatched from His hands. These are the people of God who He uses to preach the truth of the gospel of the grace of God and the Holy Spirit convicts those hearts who diligently seek to know Him. THAT is the Jesus I know and follow and I did not find Him in the Catholic Church. That is my genuine, heart-felt, objective experience. Will you tell me I am wrong?
I’ve said before and I’ll say again: these “debates” only get one so far. You’ll never find the “proof” of Catholicism here, not ultimately, not completely. That complete proof rests in your own experience, your experience founded in and guided by an objective , unbiased heart.
It’s truly the most authentic form of “independence”. It’s independence, it’s FREEDOM, from EVERYTHING *OF* this world, every influence, every prejudgement, every bias, everything. It’s the most authentic “personal relationship with Jesus”.
You will come to this knowledge not because of what the priest says, or the Pope, or any apologetic work or what your friends say (or don’t say) or what ANYONE ELSE does or says, but you will because of your OWN EXPERIENCE.
That is really a good sales pitch you got goin' there...However, it's full of holes...
Jesus Christ is NOT on Earth...He is in heaven...Jesus is the Head, not the Body...We Christians are the Body...And it is not a physical Body...It's a spiritual Body...
Now if we dump all of that biblical and spiritual knowledge we have and come to your religion with an empty head as you suggest, maybe you can brainwash some of us...
Christians do not look for an 'experience'...And while the experience in one of your religious abodes IS an experience, what with the religious looking priests, the murals, stained glass, gold dishes, richly embroidered curtains, the rituals, the incense; that is NOT what Jesus called sinners to experience...
And what independence??? Your religion is a house of bondage...You guys don't even know if you'll end up in heaven, until you get to the White Throne Judgment which is a place where no Christian will ever set foot...
A personal relationship with Jesus??? You guys aren't allowed to have a personal relationship with Jesus...Eating a wafer is not a personal relationship with Jesus...
We Christians have a personal relationship with Jesus thru the Holy Spirit who indwells each and every Christian...The Holy Spirit lives inside of us, 24/7, without eating a wafer...
You guys are not allowed that 'experience', the real experience..Only your clergy are allowed (according to your religion) to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit...
We Christians know we are saved...Our home in heaven is secured...What person in his right mind would trade any of that for what you (don't) offer???
Thank you for your kind words and civil tone, but I have to ask you what, if anything in the thought above differs in the least from the Mormons asking me to forgo attention toward the sayings of their false prophet and concentrate upon the burning in my heart? THAT is how I know your church is true? No, we live before a God who, unlike every other, makes His words plain, and never ever changes them. Our God proves Himself by Himself. All one needs to do is seek that proof out, rightly dividing.
And I have never found God in a church of any sort (yours included). It is great to get together in praise, don't get me wrong, but if I am seeking His face, I withdraw from you and everyone else to be with Him. I have learned much in solitude with the Father, deep within the wilderness among mighty ramparts that make your greatest cathedrals look like silly baubles. The sound of the Rockies singing their praise put the best of your choirs to shame.
The works of men are indeed filthy rags. There is nothing in them.
So I will counter your challenge - Come with me into the wilderness, take Communion, fast, and wait upon the Father in prayer. Seek His face. And thereafter, let us see if you care to question the authenticity of my experience (and by then yours too). In that, your religious system (and every other) will be rendered moot. There is where one will find the Spirit without ANY trinkets and rituals, without any dogmas and authorities, without a hymnal or rite at all. And if He is found there, He is found anywhere, and by the same means.
The truth is not in the teachings of the Roman church. The truth is in the teaching of the Father through His Son, and that only in the presence of the Spirit. All you need is the Book and solitude, away from every distraction in order to prove I am right in what I say.