Posted on 09/07/2013 2:27:28 PM PDT by NYer
“Nope. But if you want to believe that go ahead.”
You REALLY believe there are only 2 choices in the world?
What was your opinion on the Catholic Church and GWB & Iraq? Do you support the Catholic Church on illegal immigration?
Read “Revelation again.” It does end with war but with a final victory over temptation and death.
Every war is a failure for mankind? Does it mean nothing to you that Jesus, unlike Mohammed, did not come as a warrior? That he died at the hands of Roman soldiers who held the Jews in thrall. Pacifism may be a delusion, but only because it ignores that some men are indeed determined to go to war and must therefore be opposed.
The pope is perhaps remembering that after Bush went to war, he did nothing substantive to protect the ancient Christian communities in that state. Look at the result: those communities lie in ruins because of his his relative indifference. The irony is that many American Christians are more protective of the Jewish state than they are of the Christians who have lived in Syria since the time of Christ. Assad is a bad man, but at least under his rule, Christians will not be driven from their homes as they will be if the Islamists come into power.
Matthew 5:9
Indeed. The prince of darkness sows seeds of confusion then reaps the bountiful harvest.
Pacifism IS a delusion, and the Pope is a pacifist.
“Does it mean nothing to you that Jesus, unlike Mohammed, did not come as a warrior?”
Does it mean nothing to you that God has said He uses armies to accomplish His will, and that He has commanded war? Does it mean nothing that the Apostle Paul wrote that government has a role to play in restraining evil?
I’ve not said that EVERY war is right, and have already given examples of when I believe the US was wrong - Kosovo & now Syria. But unlike the Pope, who has bodyguards and who lives in protection by armed men, I believe that governments cannot exist unless they “provide for the common defense”. A nation that refuses to provide for the common defense would be rejecting its God-ordained role to create peace by restraining evil.
The Pope is a hypocrite. Let him refuse his bodyguards. Let him go to Syria, and walk unarmed and alone to tell both sides “Peace! Peace! God calls you to PEACE!”
heck, let the Pope walk alone in East St Louis late on a Friday night, talking to the groups of men he finds on the street. Then get ready to select a new pope...
The Pope has been muttering like a drunk fool.
Matthew 5:9 (”“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”)
Thank you for the compliment. Like millions of others in the US military, I have done my part to bring peace to the world (the fall of the Berlin Wall) and America (killing terrorists overseas).
Pacifists do not create peace. They enjoy the peace that others earn, and then condemn those who earned it for them.
While not a Roman Catholic, I appreciate that in a timely manner, the Bishop of Rome, Pope Francis has made a religious call for peace in a land torn by war and that many people of good will have gathered with him to join in that call.
In our nation, we have a political leader that has not shown sensible leadership or been timely in his calls for state action in relation to the civil war in the blighted nation of Syria. Likewise many other political leaders have also failed.
While the Godly call to peace is not always something man can honor and Just War does exist, in times like these where warring parties are all vile, the choice between escalation and isolation of the conflict are simple to make.
The fact that the Roman Catholic denomination is not my denomination at this time does not separate me from the appreciation for its timely sensibility.
Indeed, NYer.
“Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” Matt 26:52.
Just war does indeed exist, but its fruits are invariably rotten and the consequences are always - ALWAYS - to the detriment of humanity. To say otherwise is probably the height of ignorance. World War I and II caused the loss of two entire generations of European men and, many would argue, resulted in the secularization of Europe afterwards. Vietnam did the much of the same here, and bred the Baby Boomers into a generation of cynics. The human toll of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars has yet to be determined, but judging from many of the men and women who have come back tired, scarred, and often broken...well, you do the math.
War is like putting your hand into a fire: no matter the reason for doing it - be it an accident, or to save another person, or whatever other just cause - you WILL suffer the consequences of touching the flames. Anyone who thinks otherwise and sees war and violence as anything other than tragic consequences of our sinful nature is Satan’s brother in arms.
....”Seeing war and violence as anything other than tragic consequences of our sinful nature is Satan’s brother in arms”...
Will very much disagree with that statement....God Himself raised up the Nation Israel to take out (war) the “Stench” of sin that had “reached his ears”....it was those peoples doing the sin..not the sin of the Army raised to deal with them. God loves using people for His own purposes...and that is in war as well.
Sometimes you have to take out the bad guys....if God raised an army to do just that I have no problem removing the bad guys....even if it requires war...which more times than not prevents a much greater loss of life had God not intervened.
By the way I oppose going to war in Syria.....they are all bad guys....let them continue to take each other out.
So what part of the Catholic “Just War” doctrine do you disagree with?
And how is attacking Syria - the attack “the drunk fool” is “muttering” about - in our national interest or in accord with the Laws of War?
Matthew 5:9 (”“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”)
“Pacifists do not create peace. They enjoy the peace that others earn, and then condemn those who earned it for them”...
Yes indeed.
Are cops evil, when they ‘take up the sword’?
The fruit of war is NOT always rotten. You think WW2 was not worth winning? You think it would be good for the people of South Korea to suffer the way people in North Korea do? This is an interesting concept of morality, where the flourishing of evil is good and admirable, and government action to stop evil is...bad.
Every government in the world is ordained by God to provide for the common defense of its people, both internally (police) and externally (military). Some nations do that better than others, and the US track record is much better than almost any other country I can think of. It isn’t perfect, and I oppose going to war in Syria to protect Obama’s ego - but that is not the same as condemning ALL military action.
Neither you nor the Pope would be free to do anything, unless first protected by others willing to do violence in your defense.
“And how is attacking Syria - the attack “the drunk fool” is “muttering” about - in our national interest or in accord with the Laws of War?”
I’ve already written multiple times on this thread that I oppose the use of force in Syria. I condemn the Pope, not for questioning the use of force in Syria, but for attacking ALL military action, and denying all countries the right to use military force on behalf of their national interests.
The Catholic Church opposed the second Iraq war, where we killed uncounted thousands of terrorists, who answered the call to jihad and died at the hands of the US military in Iraq & Afghanistan, rather than waiting for them to come to the US and kill our people to advance Islam. IIRC, it opposed the first Gulf war, which liberated Kuwait and prevented the suffering that Saddam’s control of the major oil fields would have caused.
“There, we can see God’s reply: violence is not answered with violence, death is not answered with the language of death. In the silence of the Cross, the uproar of weapons ceases and the language of reconciliation, forgiveness, dialogue, and peace is spoken. This evening, I ask the Lord that we Christians, and our brothers and sisters of other religions, and every man and woman of good will, cry out forcefully: violence and war are never the way to peace! Let everyone be moved to look into the depths of his or her conscience and listen to that word which says: Leave behind the self-interest that hardens your heart, overcome the indifference that makes your heart insensitive towards others, conquer your deadly reasoning, and open yourself to dialogue and reconciliation. Look upon your brother’s sorrow – I think of the children, look upon these - look upon your brother’s sorrow, and do not add to it, stay your hand, rebuild the harmony that has been shattered; and all this not by conflict but by encounter! May the noise of weapons cease! War always marks the failure of peace, it is always a defeat for humanity. Let the words of Pope Paul VI resound again: ‘No more one against the other, no more, never! ... war never again, never again war!’.”
The Gospel includes the promise that Jesus WILL return, and He will destroy those who oppose Him. Judgment Day is what we are saved FROM, along with sin.
Your new Pope is a Flower-Power kind of guy. He cares more for John Lennon than the Apostle Paul. The peace Europe has enjoyed was bought and paid for with the blood of American & British soldiers. The peace South Korea has enjoyed came about because of the sacrifices of American & SK soldiers. Laws are obeyed in cities only because there are men & women willing to risk their lives to enforce those laws. A government that does not protect its people, at home and abroad, is an evil government that has rejected the role God has given it. And Flower-Power Francis isn’t going to protect or free anyone. He just sits far behind the front lines, and throws darts at the backs of those keeping him safe.
Your new Pope is a Flower-Power kind of guy. He cares more for John Lennon than the Apostle Paul.Well, there is your (rather ignorant) opinion. Sad.
Second what narses said, this is NOT a flower-power person, but one who preaches Christ.
Post number 89 says it much better. What Pope Francis is saying simply is that you do not want to make a bad thing worse.
At least Bush was much better organized. But still, God Bless Pope Francis who is simply is warning against the dangers of a possible world war.
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