Posted on 09/11/2013 6:17:56 PM PDT by Gamecock
People love the idea of hidden knowledge too much to ever let go of the idea of “Lost Gospels”. Even though all they are is blatant forgeries.
I thought the book of Enoch matches with the Dead Sea Scrolls and that the scrolls are generally dated to sometime before Christ?
I think Enoch doesn’t fit in this category.
This is why Catholics recoil at the dueterocanonicals being called “apocrypha”: the apocrypha are much later in date and were never held to be scriptural. The deuterocanonicals (1 & 2 Maccabees, Sirach, various chapters of Daniel & Esther, etc.) were written before even certain portions of the Protestant Old Testament canon, contrary to Jerome’s notions which he got from the Jews were all-but-one written in Hebrew, and, contrary to Luther’s assertions, alluded to in the New Testament.
Most protestants who belief that ancient Church Fathers rejected the “apocrypha” are confused by the fact that these books are the ones which should be known as the apocrypha; many of the same fathers who reject the “apocrypha” attest to the dueterocanonicals as scripture.
There’s Enoch of the Dead Sea Scrolls and there’s the Slavonic Enoch which is widely believed to be a medieval forgery. I Enoch, the Ethiopic Enoch, is authentic. II Enoch, the Slavonic, apparently is not.
Actually some of the apocryphal books and the pseudepigraphical books
appear to be religious tomes used to hide scientific knowledge coded into the stories.
These stories were oral histories handed down. Early Arabian,[Thousand and One Nights” etc.] Asian and later moslem oral stories repeated these themes. Some of the themes and stories are outlandish and do not make any sense at all unless the original greek language is analyzed and placed into a scientifically described process in chemistry, biology, or physics. Then what appears to modern-day scientific devices and processes appear to be described in the original greek.
The questions arise:
1. “How did 2nd and 3rd century know people about this scientific knowledge?
2.Did the devices described in the greek really exist?
3. How did the descriptions of the processes come to be if they did not have any modern day scientific instruments to do these observations and experiments?
When the translators translate from the old greek and Latin into modern languages, they primarily realize they are working on a supposed religious or fake religious document -Thus they usually attempt to translate these documents in a religious sense. That is why some of the stories do not make any sense in English.
However if the stories are translated into spanish, different words come out that are not in the English because Spanish is closer to the old greek and Arabic than modern english is and those old greek and arabic stems have different colored meanings in Spanish. The result is different from the English translation.- A lot of times if a word that was translated into Latin from the greek by a contemporary Roman translator or other, if the word in greek didn`t make any sense in context, but made sense in the latin version but didn`t have a religious connotation upon the translation into english, it was left out altogether in the later English translation.
Many times a word in the Aramaic and greek would sound similar or the same but have entirely different meanings. Thus author of a religious book who wrote down spoken words would have the text as a play-on-words, but the words would have have to been spoken to an audience that knew greek and Aramaic, and Hebrew also.
Similar to saying in English using Spanish words,
“cold today, hot tamale” because tamale is a play on the sound of the word “tomorrow”. This happens everywhere in the New Testament, OT and other non-canonical books above.’
Lots of times place-names would be introduced into the dialogue so as to compare the writer`s or speaker`s speech to an object they already knew about, e.g, as we would say something as the “Big Apple” which is not a fruit at all.
This also happens in the OT where place-names are used to describe an event there. Or a person`s name is used with a verb in conjunction with an event.
e.g., “Trump got Trumped”
I always though The Gospel of Thomas did have some roots in early church maybe using things joted down by one of the deciples as Jesus was speaking.
And many Early Church Fathers said the deuterocanonicals were not read for doctrine, but ok to read in church. Not God Breathed as Jerome indicates in his preface to the deuterocanonicals.
>> And many Early Church Fathers said the deuterocanonicals were not read for doctrine, <<
A very subtle, but key misquote: it’s not that aren’t read *for* doctrine, but that they aren’t read to *prove* doctrine. In most cases when something similar to that is said, the context is an attempt to convert Jews. Since the Jews didn’t hold them as canonical (as of some time AFTER Jesus’ resurrection), the Fathers reckoned it’s no point using them as proof of Christian doctrine. The fact that they are approved to be read in church, however, means that they are to be read for doctrine, since church readings and the subsequent homilies were the typical means of Christian indoctrination; most of what we know of most of the Church fathers comes from homilies.
(I know “homily” is a term used by Catholics for the instruction which comes after the readings, similar to, but more specific than a sermon.)
this is interesting..
Yes it is interesting and people need to know. Also the number of discrepancies with real scripture should alert anyone that the apocrypha should NOT be considered authoritative in any way.
Yeah, sure they are. And scripture contradicts itself right?
“Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” (Sirach 3:3, 30).
Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”
Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.)
“A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16).
I could go on and on. Those who believe the apocrypha or even the dueterocanonicals are scripture are in horrible error.
The fact that the early church fathers did not include the deuterocanonicals as part of the "inerrant and infallible" group of scriptures speaks volumes. While there were disagreements with what deuterocanonical books to accept or reject, the early church never accepted them. Neither did the Hebrew fathers. It wasn't included in the original package.
The Council of Trent changed all that by including them. Almost 1,000 years later. One has to wonder what new evidence surface that confirmed they were authentic when 1,000 before hand they said they weren't.
"Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St. Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecciesiasticus, as is plain from the Protogus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage." (Cardinal Cajetan, "Commentary on all the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament," cited by William Whitaker in "A Disputation on Holy Scripture," Cambridge: Parker Society (1849), p. 424)
Same thing that changed between the Canons of The Council of Orange and Trent.
Widespread corruption and various abuses that triggered The Reformation. When Luther and company called foul Rome, out of pride and greed, pushed back with new errors. And as a result now we have Trent and the Deuterocanonical books.
From the church that never changes, eh?
Same as it was in the first century?
I think not.
Oh, brother. There are quite many *apparent* contradictions in the Protestant canon, too. For instance: who are Jesus’ paternal grandparents? James, Revelations, and even the gospels also oppose your reading of Galatians, let alone the fact that Sirach is Old Testament, like all those laws of Moses which oppose Galatians.
Your history is bunk. Until Luther, scarcely anyone dreamt of compiling the Old Testament without including the deuterocanonicals. The standard OT compilation was the Septuagint, which included the deuterocanonicals.
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