Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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Is God too busy to hear all our prayers that He has to delegate that out?G-d too busy? Yes, I think maybe He is...
>>I answered that in the post.
>>“Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.”
They may have reached perfection, but they fall far short of omniscience. If a perfect Jesus Christ, who is part of God cannot answer my prayers, then why would St. Someone be able to answer them?
Furthermore, God knows that we are not perfect, yet Jesus tells us to pray to the Father. Was Jesus mistaken? Should prayers really be handled with an eye towards “process improvement” as you claim? As a member of the “holy priesthood” (1 Peter 2:9), are my prayers really so meaningless to God that I would need an intercessor other than my High Priest?
Luke 15:10 says that “there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” So, obviously, the angels know what’s going on here on earth.
Luke 20:35-36 teaches us that those that are “[resurrected] from the dead” (aka those that reach Heaven) “are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.” This indicates that the angels and heavenly saints are generally equal. So, it seems that Luke 15:10 would also apply to the heavenly saints.
As for your examples...
James says to call on elders to pray because we need all the prayers that we can get, especially when we are sick and in danger of “death” (I put “death” in parentheses because our souls are eternal; it’s an important point in this context, and I want to be careful on this thread).
Jesus taught us the Our Father because it’s a great standard prayer and because it contains some good basic theology about our relationship with God.
At the time of St. Stephen’s death, he probably wasn’t very sure of who was in Heaven and who wasn’t; additionally, he was quite desperate and didn’t have much time to seek anyone else’s help.
Jesus prayed to the Father because that’s the only one He could really pray to — how unbecoming it would be for God-incarnate to request the intercessions of a lower being.
Like I told WilliamIII...
The passage itself is not “infamous,” but the way Protestants frequently use it (at least in this context) certainly is.
I’d appreciate it if you didn’t use strawmen. Your use of them helps no one. -BlogpimperMatt
...which could most easily be done through the traditional, historical testimony, if my position were somehow indeed false...BlogpimperMatt
They're dead, Jim.
Hahahahahahahaha....
There is only one Mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. The author's misquotation and declaration of the Roman error as fact adds nothing to make the point of this diatribe against Christian believers.
What is a Logical Fallacy?
A logical fallacy is, roughly speaking, an error of reasoning. When someone adopts a position, or tries to persuade someone else to adopt a position, based on a bad piece of reasoning, they commit a fallacy. I say “roughly speaking” because this definition has a few problems, the most important of which are outlined below. Some logical fallacies are more common than others, and so have been named and defined. When people speak of logical fallacies they often mean to refer to this collection of well-known errors of reasoning, rather than to fallacies in the broader, more technical sense given above. ...
Straw Man Fallacy
A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted. This, of course, is a fallacy, because the position that has been claimed to be refuted is different to that which has actually been refuted; the real target of the argument is untouched by it.
*****
Equivocation Fallacy
The fallacy of equivocation is committed when a term is used in two or more different senses within a single argument. For an argument to work, words must have the same meaning each time they appear in its premises or conclusion. Arguments that switch between different meanings of words equivocate, and so don’t work. This is because the change in meaning introduces a change in subject. If the words in the premises and the conclusion mean different things, then the premises and the conclusion are about different things, and so the former cannot support the latter.
Fallacy of Composition
The fallacy of composition is the fallacy of inferring from the fact that every part of a whole has a given property that the whole also has that property. This pattern of argument is the reverse of that of the fallacy of division. It is not always fallacious, but we must be cautious in making inferences of this form. ...
No one goes to the father except through me... said Jesus Christ.
Praying to dead mortal humans is not Christian.
I would certainly ask a Godly person to pray for me, but I would NEVER pray for help or give thanks to anyone else except my Dad in heaven or my King, or the Holy Spirit. NEVER. God receives ALL the glory. Period.
bump
Maybe Jesus has so much paperwork he can’t answer the prayer phone? lolz
Who determined that Saints reached perfection?
humans?
Not good enough.
How many Catholic Churches are named after Jesus?
Uh, the saints are dead.
>>Maybe Jesus has so much paperwork he can’t answer the prayer phone? lolz
Obamacare paperwork?? Maybe he’s going to have to cut the number of disciples next.
lol
**It’s Biblical to Ask Saints to Pray for Us**
Of course it’s biblical. All one has to do is read the Book of Revelation about the saints with bowls of incense — our prayer rising upward to them — and they passing them on to Jesus.
wrong thread
Don’t people realize that the body dies, but the soul is alive and is judged istantly by Christ — going to heaven, hell or Purgatory?
The souls of the saints are very alive!
They share in the divine omniscience, as I mentioned in my explanation of Luke 15:10 and Luke 20:35-36.
“St. Someone” can’t answer your prayers, but can pass them along with a greater degree of righteousness. And as I demonstrated in the post, with God, the prayers of the wicked are ignored and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Of course we should pray to God. We should never lose sight of Him, lest we damage our personal relationships with Him. However, like I’ve mentioned, the prayers of the more righteous are more effective, so if we urgently desire our requests to be fulfilled, it couldn’t hurt to invoke the intercession of a heavenly saint.
Just started reading the thread. My thoughts also. You explained it most eloquently.
blessings, bobo
Certainly its acceptable to recognize people. That really isn’t the question though is it?
Are Saints recognized through earthly canonization the equivalent of Saints named in the Bible?
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