“And yet, even in that long-ago age, nearly all wars were fought without the numbers of mass-murders reported against Cathars-Albigensians.”
If there were major sieges, and mass takeovers of cities there actually were many massacres. This would continue in Europe until at least the 17th century.
“And of course, my point here is that if we are to “do unto others as we would have them do unto us”, then a Church which has must fervently hope and pray it will not itself suffer the same fate it meted out.”
The Church never “committed exterminating mass murders against heretics”. Bezier was besieged by men, not the Church. Even if a bishop was leading troops, any crimes he committed are entirely his own.
“And yet, the crusader army was under command, both spiritually and militarily, of the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Cîteaux, who reported to Pope Innocent III”
I don’t know what that is supposed to mean since the city was taken after the defenders made a rather stupid sortie and the crusaders pursued the defenders right back into the city and took it by storm. There’s no one in command when a complete rout takes place. Also, it doesn’t matter who Arnaud-Amaury reported to. He was responsible for his actions and no one else.
“And yet, all the objective evidence we have tells us just the opposite — see roamer_1 post #28 above.”
No, actually all the known evidence shows that the Albigensians were perverts (they eschewed marriage and encouraged unnatural practices), practiced ritual murder (called “endure”) and had stupid, illogical, anti-Christian beliefs such as believing physical creation was evil.
Arguably, these exterminations only happened when different religions fought each other -- the 17th century 30 Years War being a prime example.
In "normal" warfare, when say, rivals for the throne of a certain duchy fought battles, they typically did not destroy the very duchy they were fighting for.
When William the B*stard conquered England in 1066, his next major act was not to exterminate the Brits, but rather to count them, so he could tax them -- the Doomsday book.
vladimir998: "The Church never 'committed exterminating mass murders against heretics'.
Bezier was besieged by men, not the Church.
Even if a bishop was leading troops, any crimes he committed are entirely his own."
No, no, no, no.... FRiend.
Your church doesn't get off the hook that easy, not any more.
When your church commits crimes, it must pay the price.
In the case of pedophile priests, sure, they go to jail, and the Church also pays millions (or is it billions?) of dollars in restitutions.
Today, justice will be done, and the Church will pay for its crimes.
So, how long is the international statute of limitations on mass exterminations -- a century? a millennium?
A day of reckoning is coming, and you must fervently pray that your church's past victims will be kinder to you than it was to them, FRiend.
vladimir998: "it doesn’t matter who Arnaud-Amaury reported to. He was responsible for his actions and no one else."
You know, even our President, the O-man, has made world-wide apology tours, where he bows down to foreign rulers and begs peoples' forgiveness for America's alleged past sins.
Sure, it's disgusting, but supposedly therapeutic.
And recent Popes have also made numerous apologies, of which this is a partial list.
Personally, I think that's a great beginning, and one reason John Paul II deserves beatification and canonization.
So there's no need your you, vladimir998, to defend what a Pope has already apologized for.
Of course, whether some Pope ever apologized to the Cathar-Albigensians, I couldn't say.
But as I read the historical record, one is due, and it's never too late to confess, repent and seek forgiveness.
You could even start right here, right now vlad...
;-)
vladimir998: "all the known evidence shows that the Albigensians were perverts (they eschewed marriage and encouraged unnatural practices), practiced ritual murder (called “endure”) and had stupid, illogical, anti-Christian beliefs such as believing physical creation was evil."
In post #28 above, roamer_1 responds to your Church propaganda with facts and reasons, severely limited by the fact that nothing from Albigensians themselves survived.
I was especially impressed by this:
Those are my ancestors, we were persecuted by both sides, we don't think so highly of any of you people, with your puffed up arrogance.
Of course, we want to forgive you, since that's what our religion requires.
But first, you have to ask, FRiend...