Posted on 09/19/2013 5:41:50 PM PDT by James R. Aist
Many in the Christian church today have, at best, a rudimentary understanding of what Jesus was talking about when he said "You must be born again." False teachers are often quick to invent their own concept of "born again" apart from sound biblical information, so be careful to compare what they teach to the Word of God. A good grasp of the biblical teaching on this subject is important to the understanding of how God saves people and transforms their lives – the very essence of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
(Excerpt) Read more at ipost.christianpost.com ...
Well, anyone stupid enough to follow Camping gets what the deserves as do they if they follow Catholicism or any other false teacher or religion.
It is interesting because I’ve been called a follower of Camping, Swaggart, and a Protestant.
In fact, I follow none of them....just Christ.
I am not religious...I simple love Jesus...love how He loves me and works in my life and want others to have that. And I get scalped for it.
Jesus has been the only one there for me...not a church, not a church leader, not a denomination, not anyone or anything else...and my loyalty, allegiance, faith are solely for Him.
This is the description of who, what, where, when, and then comes the why of the message Christ decided to give him - us. And we can figure out this instruction was not given by the Pharisees.
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, (in secret) and said unto Him, "Rabbi, we know that Thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that Thou doest, except God be with him."
Who is this 'we' that Nicodemus speaks of?
Christ knew what the Pharisees taught and believed. And the instruction Christ set about to give was not new. We can know this by John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, (by Divine power) he cannot see the kingdom of God."
It seems that little study is done in what most Christians consider the 'old' done away with Testament, except for a verse here and there I will go to a New Testament verse to illustrate this instruction.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are *partakers of flesh and blood, He also likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
We know that 'life' in these flesh bodies begins at conception by the description given to us of Christ from Luke. We also know that there are a numbered fallen angels and only one named entity, the devil that will not be allowed to be born from above. They have already been judged to death.
What did the Pharisees, teach/believe?
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Nicodemus did not understand what was said. Yet Nicodemus was born already from above when his soul/spirit intellect was placed in his mother's womb at conception.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
What happens at conception? Why the soul/spirit intellect sent by God is placed in the 'water' = womb.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh .... (Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust (flesh) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born from above.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the spirit.
John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto Him, "How can these things be?"
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye received not our witness.
John 3:12 IF I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, IF I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.
John 3:13 explains in the simple term what Christ told Nicodemus, who as a master of Israel should have already known.
When the flesh body dies it returns to the dust from which it came, but the soul/spirit intellect that came from God, returns to Him. The good the bad and the ugly! We can know this from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
We also know that only the devil is named and a numbered of fallen angels of Genesis 6 and Jude will not have opportunity to 'see' or 'enter' the kingdom of God.
The Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost Day after the Crucifixion and Christ returning to the Father. John 3 is not talking about the Holy Spirit. It is describing what is the first step required to 'see' and 'enter' the kingdom of God. John 3:13 explains what the instruction to Nicodemus was.
Whatever I have left out must not be very important then, since I have a vibrant and wonderful relationship with the Lord.
I am not here to have great theological debates or discuss scripture ad infinitum.
I simply want others to have what God says they can have with Him. A personal relationship with Him. It is the reason we were created after all.
God bless you,
jodyel
I didn't bother reading that lengthy tome. I stopped right after seeing that you think of yourself as my teacher, and that I lack any understanding of the Scriptures. I prefer to trust in the Holy Spirit to teach me, thank you.
A basic, and I do mean basic, exegesis teaches who Jesus was talking to and that same exegesis reveals that the term that he uses refers to being “born again”, and all your rhetoric about this and that does not change that meaning, as we see in Jesus's response to Nic that his reference was to a spiritual rebirth. But, Nicodemus heard the words as “born-again” like coming out of the womb. What is confusing about that?
All of you talk about fallen Angels and other extraneous verbiage does nothing to establish your authority. Actually, it tells me the opposite. Though you may be trying to say something of value, your words come through from a tangent. Any spirit filled Christian can understand the simple words that set to paper through men, both from the Old Testament and the New. It is the same Spirit that he raised Christ from the dead and made it possible for us to be “born again”!
Try again somewhere else, as I cannot take anymore of your thoughts. As stated above, I will trust the Holy Spirit to teach me. It is after Pentecost, you know!
****
Just to add something from the Internet, after simply searching:
...Being God's people under the old covenant, the Jews needed to be "born again" by entering into the new covenant upon termination of the old one; but how could they if they rejected the mediator of that new covenant? (Heb. 9:13-15) Only by entering into the new covenant could they inherit the promise God had made them: "And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," for it was by means of the new covenant that this was to be fulfilled. (Exodus 19:5,6) That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus: "Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3) ..."Born again"-What did Jesus mean?
Well, since I am a church age believer, it stands to reason that I can be filled with the Spirit. And since anyone I am speaking to now of the “new birth” is also of the church age, they too may be filled with the Spirit.
I don’t have a need to differentiate the terms as you do because they mean the same thing to me.
One must be spiritually reborn of God, not physically. Both terms equate that for me. If they do not for you, then I’ve no idea what else to say.
What is a church age? Where can I find that instruction?
Those might be the mechanics of becoming born again, but being born again means one has now received a new living human spirit, which is alive with God. Prior to being born again, the unbeliever only has a soul and body, but no human spirit capable of understanding spiritual things.
It is dispensational.
http://www.gotquestions.org/church-age.html
I guess I am just not up on the correct lingo.
So death-bed conversions are out of the question then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperdispensationalism
Looks like I might even be a hyperdispensationalist! Wow, who knew?!
I don’t know all the various terms, but I do know what I know. LOL
Unless you grow up believing, from the earliest age you can remember. Never having had any doubts about the diety of Christ, your sinful nature, and your need for His sacrifice as payment for your sins, leaves you without a palpable conversion experience from non-believer to believer.
You would think such a case of naturally coming to Jesus would be the ideal, yet the lack of a dramatic "transformation" can have its drawbacks, regarding assurance of being "born again". I speak from experience.
Unless I’m reading your posts wrong, you seem to be saying baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation. No one could argue against baptism, since Jesus commands it, and a believer should do so out of obedience.
But to believe baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation, you would have to envision Jesus at the bedside of a dying man, who says, “Lord, I believe you are the Son of God who died for my sins,” and then Jesus responding, “That’s all well and good, but it’s a shame we don’t have time to get you baptized. Say hi to Lucifer.”
That’s just not the God I know.
I made a profession of faith at the age of nine but there was no great dramatic moment. I believed the message of Jesus as presented by the evangelist and asked Jesus to come into my heart.
For the next 25 or so years I went on my way and lived life. Did not go to any church for reasons of physical and mental health issues, which would be difficult to explain. Suffice it to say that I have had just enough energy to survive, never thrive. And that meant going to work to earn a way to pay for the place I slept in the rest of the time. Yep, have pretty much slept my way thru life.
I grew up in an abusive home with parents who had their own issues and took them out on us physically and emotionally. No coping skills whatsoever. And that is what made me want Jesus, I believe. I understood even at that young age, He was it...I just did not understand how he was it.
So fast forward to the age of 32 and going thru the most stressful time in my life: emotionally, personally, financially, employment-related, you name it. The stuff was hitting the fan hard in every area of my life.
I collapsed....spiritually. That is what it took for God to focus my attention solely on Him. And that is where the dramatic I-finally-understand-and-get-it-moment-occurred. And looking back on my life I could see He had been engineering the circumstances all along to bring me to this point.
Some never need this much trauma to hear His voice but I did. And I have been following ever since. Yes, I have sinned, yes I have been benched and sat on the sidelines (where I am right now). But He is still with me and still working out my future....of that there is no doubt.
I probably have not used the correct terms that others can understand, but what I have been trying to say is that all it takes is Him. It does not take attending a mass or taking a Eucharist or even going to any church at all. It does not take water baptism or going door to door evangelizing. All those things are secondary to the saving belief in Jesus. He does all the work of salvation and He has worked in my life just as He did in Paul’s.
A sudden and very dramatic intervention whereby He was front and center in my life....a three-year period of nothing but immersion in Scripture and learning from it...followed by an even more dramatic spiritual victory that left no one watching in doubt as to Who had brought the victory...followed by a serious physical and emotional collapse....followed by a ten+-year period of healing of mind and body. And now I am just waiting for the next phase.
My journey has indeed been very dramatic and traumatic to say the least, but I believe that part is over and look forward to whatever is ahead. It may not be the ideal conversion and journey but it is what happened with me. And I believe it is what leads me away from religious busyness because I have seen that one does not have to go that route in order to know God and have a saving faith in His Son.
I got it, no doubt! :)
I appreciate you sharing so much of your personal experience. And I’m glad you’ve got “no doubt.”
I very often regret not ever having been a non-believer and therefore not having a “transformational” experience I can refer back to. What a dumb regret, to wish you once never believed in God....
Yet, it presents a real challenge. Being unable to compare your life now to what it was before. Do I sin because I’ve never been truly born again, or is my sin the sin that all true believers have to deal with anyway?
It seems God has different paths for people to follow. Some a life-changing transformation, others just have to cling to the promise of John 3:16.
Maybe it is not necessary for some to have that.
Unfortunately, I am a rebel personified and no one could control me...not mother, not father, not husband. Even hard for me to obey God sometimes. It has always been “my way or the highway.” But God is the ultimate opponent and I was not about to win against Him, so there you are. :)
We will always struggle with sin while we are here in these fallen bodies and minds. Not till we reach heaven will we be made perfect.
Have you ever asked the Lord to make Himself very personal to you? To let you know He does live in your heart and to tell you so in no uncertain terms? One of my friends calls my bible my tarot cards because I ask the Lord about every major decision. And He always gives me an answer...straight from Scripture usually. She was one of those that got to see that spiritual victory I mentioned and see that it is much more than just fortune telling.
I learned how to listen for the Lord’s voice thru the teaching ministry of Charles Stanley and this is the first one God led me to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvAnQCoPH2Y
Do you see though that between the ages of 9 and 32, even when I was not aware I was born again and saved, I was and God had been with me all that time? You ask, He comes. You may not have awareness at that moment, but I believe you will at some point.
A little weak on your Catholic history, eh? Perhaps you need to review your churches history and all the anathemas pronounced at the Council of Trent for those who dare to think for themselves and disagree with the Catholic church, which all Catholics are bound to agree with on threat of damnation of their eternal souls as well.
AMEN!!!
I will pray that God will do something for you that will make a transformation that is that significant.
I was saved at 22, and there was a huge change, not a saved out of drug dealing, immoral lifestyle kind of change, but still, significant.
I struggled through my Christian life until I dealt with two issues, and when I did that God filled me with His Holy Spirit. It was almost more significant in some ways that my salvation. I say almost, because of course, there is nothing more significant than being saved. But in many ways, it was because I knew what had happened and I knew what it meant. It revolutionized by walk with Christ.
I’ll pray that God does the same for you. Something that you can look back at and thank Him for doing in your life that will make that kind of change for you.
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