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When Were Joseph and Mary Married?
Catholic Answers ^ | September 20, 2013 | Tim Staples

Posted on 09/21/2013 3:07:58 PM PDT by NYer

When the Archangel Gabriel visited Mary and declared unto her that she was called to be the Mother of God, as we see recorded in Luke 1, her response would become the cause of the spilling of a whole lot of ink over the centuries: “How shall this happen, since I know not man?” (v. 34, Douay Rheims, Confraternity Edition).

For Catholics this is an indication of Mary’s vow of perpetual virginity. It’s really quite simple. If Mary and Joseph were just an ordinary couple embarking on a normal married life together, there would be no reason to ask the question. Mary would have known very well how it could be that the angel was saying she would have a baby. As St. Augustine said it:

Had she intended to know man, she would not have been amazed. Her amazement is a sign of the vow (Sermon 225, 2).

But Protestants do not see it as quite so simple. Reformed Apologist James White gives us an example of the most common objection to our “Catholic” view of this text:

Nothing about a vow is mentioned in Scripture. Mary’s response to the angel was based upon the fact that it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception, and since Mary was at that time only engaged to Joseph, but not married, at that time she could not possibly conceive in a natural manner, since she did not “know a man” (Mary—Another Redeemer? p. 31.).

Among the errors in just these two sentences (I counted four), there are two that stand out for our purpose here.

Error #1: Mr. White claims Mary was engaged to St. Joseph.

There was no such thing as engagement (as it is understood in modern Western culture) in ancient Israel. The text says Mary was “betrothed” or “espoused” (Gr.—emnesteumene), not engaged. Betrothal, in ancient Israel, would be akin to the ratification of a marriage (when a couple exchanges vows in the presence of an official witness of the Church) in Catholic theology. That ratified marriage is then consummated—in the normal course—on the couple’s wedding night. So when Luke 1:27 says Mary was betrothed, it means they were already married at the time of the annunciation. If this were an ordinary marriage, St. Joseph would then have had a husband’s right to the marriage bed—the consummation.

This simple truth proves devastating to Mr. White’s (and the Protestant's) argument. If Joseph and Mary were married—and they were—and they were planning the normal course, Mary would have known full and well how she could and would have a baby. As St. Augustine said, the question reveals the fact that this was not just your average, ordinary marriage. They were not planning to consummate their union.

Betrothed = Married?

For those who are not convinced “betrothed” equals “married” for Mary and Joseph; fortunately, the Bible makes this quite clear. If we move forward in time from the “annunciation” of Luke 1 to Matthew 1 and St. Joseph’s discovery of Mary’s pregnancy, we find Matthew 1:18 clearly stating Mary and Joseph were still “betrothed.” Yet, when Joseph found out Mary was “with child,” he determined he would “send her away privately” (vs. 19). The Greek verb translated in the RSVCE to send away is apolusai, which means divorce. Why would Joseph have to divorce Mary if they were only engaged?

Further, the angel then tells Joseph:

Do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit . . . When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife (vss. 20-24).

Notice, Joseph took Mary “his wife,” indicating both St. Matthew and an archangel considered this couple married even though they were said to be “betrothed.” “Betrothed” is obviously much more than “engaged.”

Moreover, months later we find Joseph and Mary travelling together to Bethlehem to be enrolled as a family according to the decree of Caesar Augustus, just before Jesus would be born. They were obviously married; yet, even then, they were still said to be “betrothed” (see Luke 2:5).

So let's recap what have we have uncovered. First, Joseph had already taken his espoused “wife” into his home and was caring for her. Second, Scripture reveals him to be her legal husband and to have travelled with Mary to be enrolled with her as a lawfully wedded couple and family. Third, she was called St. Joseph’s “wife” by the angel of the Lord… and yet, they were still referred to as betrothed.

Referring to Mary and Joseph as “engaged” in the face of all of this evidence would be like calling a modern couple at their wedding reception “engaged” because they have yet to consummate their marriage.

Once the fact that Mary and Joseph were already married at the time of the annunciation is understood, Mary’s “How shall this happen…” comes more into focus. Think about it: If you were a woman who had just been married (your marriage was “ratified,” but not consummated) and someone at your reception said—or “prophesied”—that you were going to have a baby—that would not really be all that much of a surprise. That is the normal course of events. You marry, consummate the union, and babies come along. You certainly would not ask the question, “Gee, how is this going to happen?” It is in this context of Mary having been betrothed, then, that her question does not make sense… unless, of course, you understand she had a vow of virginity. Then, it makes perfect sense.

Error #2: Mr. White claimed, “…it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception.” And, closely related to this, Mr. White then claimed Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" because she knew "at that time she could not conceive in a natural manner?"

Really? It was obvious?

There is not a single word in this text or anywhere else in Scripture that indicates Mary knew her conception was going to be immediate and via supernatural means. That’s why she asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" It appears she did not know the answer. How could she? Why would it ever enter into her mind? There would be no way apart from a revelation from God that she could have known. And most importantly, according to the text, the angel did not reveal the fact that Mary would conceive immediately and supernaturally until after Mary asked the question.

But let's suppose Mary was "engaged" as Mr. White claims. There would be even less reason to believe the conception would be immediate and somehow supernatural then there would be if Mary had a vow of virginity (though there’s really no reason to think this in either scenario). An "engaged" woman would have naturally assumed that when she and St. Joseph would later consummate their marriage, they could expect a very special surprise from God. They were going to conceive the Messiah. There would be no reason to think anything else. And there would be no reason to ask the question.

One final thought: When Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen, since I do not know man," the verb to be (Gr.-estai) is in the future tense. There is nothing here that would indicate she was thinking of the immediate. The future tense here most likely refers to… the future. The question was not how she could conceive immediately. The question was how she could conceive ever. The angel answered that question for her.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: sectarianturmoil
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To: lasereye

Plus the wind is mentioned — Holy Spirit


61 posted on 09/21/2013 8:25:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

And I have always thought of the light behind the first darkness as Christ.


62 posted on 09/21/2013 8:28:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
I think you mean after the birth of Jesus.

According to the argument advanced in this article, they would have had to vow to live as brother and sister before the birth of Jesus. So St. Joachim and St. Anne, whoever they are, then contradict this article. But I guess it doesn't really matter, you just pick whatever theory, tradition etc. you want.

63 posted on 09/21/2013 8:29:25 PM PDT by lasereye
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To: NYer
For those who are not convinced “betrothed” equals “married” for Mary and Joseph; fortunately, the Bible makes this quite clear. If we move forward in time from the “annunciation” of Luke 1 to Matthew 1 and St. Joseph’s discovery of Mary’s pregnancy, we find Matthew 1:18 clearly stating Mary and Joseph were still “betrothed.” Yet, when Joseph found out Mary was “with child,” he determined he would “send her away privately” (vs. 19). The Greek verb translated in the RSVCE to send away is apolusai, which means divorce. Why would Joseph have to divorce Mary if they were only engaged?

The extreme deception the Catholic religion will go thru to pervert the scriptures for the purpose of fooling its own Catholics is beyond comical...It is hilarious...

Does the word mean divorce??? It could...It could also mean:

ἀπολύω
apoluō
ap-ol-oo'-o
From G575 and G3089; to free fully, that is, (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon, or (specifically) divorce: - (let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty.

To pick a word out of the middle of all those and claim it has to be that word is ridiculous...

Further, the angel then tells Joseph:

Do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit . . . When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife (vss. 20-24).

Unfortunately for Catholics, the scriptures do not end where they tell you guys they end...Here's the rest of the story...

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Joseph did not take his wife...He took unto him his wife...They were not together before that...

Contrary to what the Catholic religion tells you, a betrothal is the promise of a wedding...A wedding is not a ceremony other than exchanging money or animals or both...The wedding is a party with tons of guests and food which is a public display that the betrothal has come to fruition and sexual intercourse consummates the marriage...

So look again...

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

While they were living separately, Mary gets pregnant...That's clear...

Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Espoused means wife??? So Joseph was with his Wife Wife??? What kind of idiot would say espoused means wife???

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

We can take everything the Catholics say about the issue and file it in the round file and instead, believe God...

64 posted on 09/21/2013 8:37:13 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: lasereye

St Joachim and St. Anne were the parents of Mary. Read the link above that has the word “Traditional” in it.


65 posted on 09/21/2013 8:39:07 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: lasereye

So many of these “traditions” seem to only exist not to show that Jesus is Lord and Savior, but to prove that Mary was something or someone she is not—a savior or a step above human.


66 posted on 09/21/2013 8:40:51 PM PDT by madison10
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To: lasereye

Sorry == it was this one.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2754251/posts


67 posted on 09/21/2013 8:41:28 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jph1776
“Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did” St Maximilian Kolbe, Martyr who also ran a popular magazine focused on improving the culture, we sure could use that!

But you can love her more than you love Jesus and it's clear to me that that is the Catholic teaching and position...

68 posted on 09/21/2013 8:41:45 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
In this case, Mary’s parents, Joachim and Anna, were already elderly when she was born, which suggests that they died when she was still at a young age.

And Mary's brothers and sisters were all virgins til death as well and so was Anna...It ran in the family...

Anna loved German chocolate cake and fed it to the kids constantly...That's why Mary was an extremely chubby child...She grew up so chubby that her husband had to haul her around on a Donkey...

Just like yours, my story has no basis in fact either...

69 posted on 09/21/2013 8:48:35 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer

Where are the names of Mary”s parents even mentioned in the Bible? How did we get the story about Joseph being old and Mary’s and Joseph’s other children not being siblings of Jesus? It’s all made up.


70 posted on 09/21/2013 8:48:48 PM PDT by madison10
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To: Ciexyz
Different faith traditions can believe what they want to believe but the bottom line is we should respect the Holy Family and not cause pain to other believers who can’t or won’t accept the traditional teachings. I don’t think the two sides will ever come together over this.

There is no Holy Family and there aren't two sides...There's one side and it's not the Catholic corruption...

71 posted on 09/21/2013 8:53:15 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: madison10

>> “It’s all made up.” <<

.
We call that “Catholic” here.

Mary’s father was Joseph Ben Yakov; I don’t recall her mother being named.


72 posted on 09/21/2013 9:00:50 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Iscool

God & Jesus are holy, this “holy family” thing bugs me.


73 posted on 09/21/2013 9:01:30 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: Salvation
Re=read the story of the Visitation again, please, and Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary, “How is this that the Mother of the Lord....”

You have been told this before...God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all referred to as Lord in the scriptures...Apparently you are not ambitious enough to look it up...

74 posted on 09/21/2013 9:03:15 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Salvation
So do you believe that Father, Son and Holy Spirit were present at the beginning of the World?

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

He wasn't referring to me, myself, and I...

75 posted on 09/21/2013 9:06:35 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: GeronL
God & Jesus are holy, this “holy family” thing bugs me.

It bugged Martin Luther too... :)

76 posted on 09/21/2013 9:12:03 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy; Sherman Logan
You are aware, aren't you, that these writings are little more than a type of "propaganda" or imaginings of people who wanted the story of Jesus to compete with those of the pagan gods and goddesses of the times? If you read some of the outlandish things the Infancy Gospel of James, for example, says happened during Jesus' childhood, he comes across as little bully with a chip on his shoulder. I wouldn't put any stock in what these "extra-biblical" books have to say. Many can be read HERE.
77 posted on 09/21/2013 9:38:06 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: GailA
Could not tell you, I’m AG, and believe in the virgin birth, knowing Joseph was much older than Mary as he was already a master carpenter. Probably about 30 to her 12-13. And the angel who told him not to be afraid to take her to wife also told him to refrain from touching her until after Jesus’s birth. Scripture prophecy had to be fulfilled of virgin birth.

Except there is no reliable, objective source for what were the ages of Mary and Joseph. I completely accept the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. It was, after all, one of the major prophecies concerning the true Messiah:

    Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)

That is why, when Mary was found to be with child before she and Joseph consummated their marriage, he sought to quietly put her away/divorce her since she could be executed for adultery if it was found out. He "moved up" the actual taking her to be his wife after the angel appeared to him in a dream explaining what had happened. And, yes, he did not "consummate" their marriage until after she had given birth to Jesus (He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. (Matt. 1:25)).

78 posted on 09/21/2013 9:50:53 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: GeronL; Iscool
"God & Jesus are holy, this “holy family” thing bugs me."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So, you don't believe that Mary and Joseph were holy?    Do you have some reason for that disbelief?     Does it say anywhere in the Bible that they were not holy?

Do you believe that there were apostles and prophets who were holy, like it says in Ephesians 3:4-5?    (If so, why can't you belief that the parents of Jesus were also holy?)    Here's that reference:

"When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;"    Ephesians 3:4-5
(I have to leave right now, but I'll try to check for your response some time after Mass tomorrow, if I get a chance.    I'd really like to know why you have so much trouble seeing the parent and foster parent of Our Lord and Our God, Jesus Christ, as being holy people.)
79 posted on 09/21/2013 9:52:12 PM PDT by Heart-Rest (Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7)
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To: Catsrus

Ruh, roh...you will be unleashing the hounds on you Catsrus! ;o)


80 posted on 09/21/2013 9:53:34 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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