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From Crystal to Christ: A Once and Future Cathedral
First Things ^ | September 23, 2013 | Timothy George

Posted on 09/23/2013 3:37:06 PM PDT by RCB-Catholic

“America loves success stories.” This is how a 1983 admiring profile of the famed Robert Harold Schuller began. And back in 1983 “Bob” Schuller, as his friends called him, was certainly successful. The son of pious Dutch Reformed parents, Schuller was born on a farm in Sioux County, Iowa, in 1926. That was one year before Sinclair Lewis published Elmer Gantry, a satirical novel about a ne’er-do-well preacher from Kansas. Though Schuller would match Gantry in exuberance and flamboyant style, he was no charlatan. Educated at his denomination’s flagship schools, Hope College and Western Theological Seminary, Schuller was already a proven pastor before being sent by the Reformed Church in America to plant a new congregation in Orange County, California.
.............
Evangelicals do not do succession well. Just think of Charles Spurgeon, D. L. Moody, Oral Roberts, and a host of others. And so now, the Crystal Cathedral belongs to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange (a color that might make some Irish Catholics a bit queasy!). I applaud Schuller for agreeing to sell his building to Catholics, for whom succession of a certain kind is a big deal, rather than to an institution that would give no assurances of preserving its character as sacred space.

.........


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: crystalcathedral; ybpdln

1 posted on 09/23/2013 3:37:06 PM PDT by RCB-Catholic
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To: RCB-Catholic

the Blood is thicker than mud


2 posted on 09/23/2013 3:39:55 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: RCB-Catholic

Roberts and Schuller don’t belong in the same sentence with Spurgeon and Moody.


3 posted on 09/23/2013 3:45:55 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt (A sinner can't pay for grace that's free, nor add to work that's complete.)
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To: RCB-Catholic

Pretty snarky headline.


4 posted on 09/23/2013 3:48:02 PM PDT by DManA
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To: RCB-Catholic

Wasn’t Schuller a protégé of Norman Vincent Peale?


5 posted on 09/23/2013 4:17:20 PM PDT by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: DManA; HiTech RedNeck; .45 Long Colt
>Pretty Snark Headline ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Writer of the article appears to be Reformed, Protestant or something not Catholic.
Timothy George is dean of Beeson Divinity School of Samford University and general editor of the Reformation Commentary on Scripture.
6 posted on 09/23/2013 4:20:40 PM PDT by RCB-Catholic
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To: RCB-Catholic

Welcome to FR.


7 posted on 09/23/2013 4:25:35 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: RCB-Catholic
It's hard to figure out what is going on here.


8 posted on 09/23/2013 4:29:50 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: .45 Long Colt
Roberts and Schuller don’t belong in the same sentence with Spurgeon and Moody.

I think I would tend to agree with that.

9 posted on 09/23/2013 4:30:34 PM PDT by Mark17 (It is every liberal's job to destroy America, and every conservative's job to stop him.)
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To: .45 Long Colt

They sure don’t. I saw through Schuller decades ago. He never taught from the Bible or didn’t the times I watched him. The few Catholic services I have seen on EWTN don’t either. I use to come across gene Scott on shortwave back in the 80/90’s. He was a kook but not as bad as the one from one of the Carolina’s. Forgot his name. Have not heard about him in years. He would call people who disagreed with him, dogs. Will have to do a search for him.


10 posted on 09/23/2013 4:33:19 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: MamaB

His name is Brother R. G. Stair. He is a cult leader. He use to be on 100+ stations which is down to 25 now.


11 posted on 09/23/2013 4:38:59 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: MamaB

The Catholic masses I attend teach from the Bible.


12 posted on 09/23/2013 4:42:21 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: RCB-Catholic

Oh I know exactly who Timothy George is. I frequently take issue with things he says and does. I reject his ecumenism as unbiblical.


13 posted on 09/23/2013 4:52:36 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt (A sinner can't pay for grace that's free, nor add to work that's complete.)
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To: DuncanWaring

I did not say I attended them. I have come across some on the Catholic network. I admit I do not watch many but the ones I did, never mentioned the Bible. And, the ones on some other religious networks do not either. All I ever see on them are pleas for money. Let them live in a smaller houses, give up their helicopters, planes, etc. I saw a news item where one wanted their “members” to donate $75,000 to paint his helicopter and one wanted $10,000,000 to update his plane. Poor things. They sure do not live like Jesus did.


14 posted on 09/23/2013 4:53:52 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: MamaB

I haven’t thought of Gene Scott in forever. What a snarling carnival barker he was. I think he’s long dead.

I’m not sure who the fellow from N.C. might be, but if you think of his name let me know. I am simultaneously repulsed and fascinated by these hucksters.


15 posted on 09/23/2013 5:01:35 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt (A sinner can't pay for grace that's free, nor add to work that's complete.)
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To: .45 Long Colt

I posted his name in an earlier post——Bro. R. G. Stair from SC.


16 posted on 09/23/2013 5:24:32 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: MamaB

I remember him, too. Or I think I do. If he is the one I’m thinking of I used to hear him when I was driving at night in the 80’s and early 90’s. Back then I traveled a lot in my work. I remember a guy that droned on and on. I recall endless and aimless rants. He was interesting for all the wrong reasons.


17 posted on 09/23/2013 5:41:18 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt (A sinner can't pay for grace that's free, nor add to work that's complete.)
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To: RCB-Catholic
...the once and future cathedral

It was never a cathedral--Schuller's denomination spun off from the Dutch Reformed Church, which has no bishops or dioceses.

18 posted on 09/23/2013 6:19:54 PM PDT by Fiji Hill
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To: Fiji Hill

A man of your intelligence shouldn’t be wasting it posting to me. Perhaps this is information the original writer of the article could use.

However, I suppose Schuller calling it the ‘Crystal Cathedral’ means nothing in your book.

Also read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral

There are certain variations on the use of the term “cathedral”; for example, .... As cathedrals are often particularly impressive edifices, the term “cathedral” is often applied colloquially to any large and impressive church, regardless of whether it functions as a cathedral, such as the Crystal Cathedral in California or ...


19 posted on 09/23/2013 7:12:30 PM PDT by RCB-Catholic
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To: RCB-Catholic; infool7; Heart-Rest; HoosierDammit; red irish; fastrock; NorthernCrunchyCon; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

20 posted on 09/23/2013 7:16:11 PM PDT by narses
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To: RCB-Catholic

Schuller probably thought that Crystal Cathedral would be a catchy and alliterative name for a house of worship made of glass, even though it wasn’t entirely accurate—sort of like Crispy Cream doughnuts, which are neither crispy nor creamy.

Incidentally, I have read that the successor to the Crystal Cathedral is to be called the Shepherd’s Grove, which is interesting, since one doesn’t associate shepherds with groves—Shepherd’s Range would have been more appropriate. However, the name probably alludes to Garden Grove, where it is located.


21 posted on 09/23/2013 9:05:05 PM PDT by Fiji Hill
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To: RCB-Catholic

Welcome to FR!


22 posted on 09/23/2013 9:09:19 PM PDT by Fiji Hill
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To: MamaB

Recalling but they read the bible..............here is today’s September 24, 2013

Tuesday of the Twenty-fifth Week in Ordinary Time

Reading 1 Ezr 6:7-8, 12b, 14-20

King Darius issued an order to the officials
of West-of-Euphrates:
“Let the governor and the elders of the Jews
continue the work on that house of God;
they are to rebuild it on its former site.
I also issue this decree
concerning your dealing with these elders of the Jews
in the rebuilding of that house of God:
From the royal revenue, the taxes of West-of-Euphrates,
let these men be repaid for their expenses, in full and without delay.
I, Darius, have issued this decree;
let it be carefully executed.”

The elders of the Jews continued to make progress in the building,
supported by the message of the prophets,
Haggai and Zechariah, son of Iddo.
They finished the building according to the command
of the God of Israel
and the decrees of Cyrus and Darius
and of Artaxerxes, king of Persia.
They completed this house on the third day of the month Adar,
in the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.
The children of Israel–priests, Levites,
and the other returned exiles–
celebrated the dedication of this house of God with joy.
For the dedication of this house of God,
they offered one hundred bulls,
two hundred rams, and four hundred lambs,
together with twelve he-goats as a sin-offering for all Israel,
in keeping with the number of the tribes of Israel.
Finally, they set up the priests in their classes
and the Levites in their divisions
for the service of God in Jerusalem,
as is prescribed in the book of Moses.

The exiles kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the first month.
The Levites, every one of whom had purified himself for the occasion,
sacrificed the Passover for the rest of the exiles,
for their brethren the priests, and for themselves.

Responsorial Psalm PS 122:1-2, 3-4ab, 4cd-5

R. (1) Let us go rejoicing to the house of the Lord.
I rejoiced because they said to me,
“We will go up to the house of the LORD.”
And now we have set foot
within your gates, O Jerusalem.
R. Let us go rejoicing to the house of the Lord.
Jerusalem, built as a city
with compact unity.
To it the tribes go up,
the tribes of the LORD.
R. Let us go rejoicing to the house of the Lord.
According to the decree for Israel,
to give thanks to the name of the LORD.
In it are set up judgment seats,
seats for the house of David.
R. Let us go rejoicing to the house of the Lord.

Gospel Lk 8:19-21

The mother of Jesus and his brothers came to him
but were unable to join him because of the crowd.
He was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside
and they wish to see you.”
He said to them in reply, “My mother and my brothers
are those who hear the word of God and act on it.”


23 posted on 09/24/2013 1:06:32 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: MamaB

Scripture in the order of the mass

Nearly everything we say at mass has its roots in Sacred Scripture. This guide will help you if anyone you know is in doubt about that. Catholics quote scripture all the time, and their actions are deeply scriptural. After all, scripture flowed out of the early Church. The Church came first, the New Testament and the canon of scripture second.

Greeting

Priest: In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)

People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)

Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13:13)

People: And with your spirit.

Liturgy of the Word

Penitential Rite

All: I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, (Jas 5:16) in my thoughts and in my words (Jas 3:6) in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, (Rom. 12:16) through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.(1Thess 5:25)

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9)

People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)

All: Lord have mercy. (Tb 8:4) Christ have mercy. (1 Tim 1:2) Lord have mercy.

Gloria

All: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will. (Luke 2:14)
We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you,
we give you thanks for your great glory, (Rev 7:12)
Lord God, heavenly King, O God, almighty Father (Rev 19:6)
Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son, (2 John 3)Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father,
you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; (John 1:29)
you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us. (Rom 8:34)
For you alone are the Holy One, (Luke 4:34)
you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, (Luke 1:32)
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father, Amen (John 14:26)

[The Liturgy of the Word consists of four readings from Scripture: the first is typically from the Old Testament, the second a psalm, followed by a reading from one of the epistles. Finally, the Gospel is proclaimed during which the people stand out of respect for the Word. The chosen readings change daily.]

A Sermon on the readings follows. (2 Tim 4:1-2)

Profession of Faith

All: I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19) of all things visible and invisible. (Col 1:16) I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Begotten Son of God, (Luke 1:35) born of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father; (Heb 1:3) through him all things were made. (John 1:2-3) For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 3:13) and by the power of the Holy Spirit he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:16) he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4) He ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1) and his kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33) I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son, (John 14:16) who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11) I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen

Liturgy of the Eucharist

[The gifts are brought to the altar. These include the bread and wine and the offering collected from the people.] (Malachi 3:10)

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13) It will become for us the bread of life. (John 6:35)

People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. (Luke 22:17-18)

People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)

Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28)

People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our sake and the good of all his holy Church. (Ps 50:23)

Priest: The Lord be with you.
People: And with your spirit.
Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord. (Lam 3:41)
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God. (Col 3:17)
People: It is right and just. (Col 1:3)

Preface Acclamation

All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of hosts. Heaven and earth are full of your glory. (Is 6:3) Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. (Mark 11:9-10)
Eucharistic prayer [There are four of these, based on ancient prayers of the Church. Eucharistic Prayer Two follows as an example:]

Priest: You are Holy indeed, O Lord the fount of all holiness. (2 Macc. 14:36) Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray, by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. At the time he was betrayed and entered willingly into his Passion (John 10:17-18) he took bread and, giving thanks, broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take this all of you, and eat of it: For this is my body which will be given up for you. In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took the chalice and, once more giving thanks, he gave the it to his disciples, saying: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: For this is the chalice of my blood, the blood of the new and eternal covenant. Which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this is memory of me. (Mark 14:22-25) Let us proclaim the mystery of faith.

All: When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again. (1Cor 11:26)

Priest: Therefore, as we celebrate the memorial of his Death and Resurrection, we offer you, Lord, the Bread of life and the Chalice of salvation, (John 6:51) giving thanks that you have held us worthy to be in your presence and minister to you. Humbly we pray that, partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, we may be gathered into one by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.10:17) Remember, Lord, your Church spread throughout the world; bring her to the fullness of charity, together with our Pope and our bishop, and all the clergy. Remember our brothers and sisters who have fallen asleep and all who have died in your mercy: welcome them into the light of your face. (2 Macc 12:45-46) Have mercy on us all, we pray, that with the blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, with the apostles and with all the saints who have pleased you throughout the ages, may we merit to be co-heirs to eternal life, and may praise and glorify you through your Son, Jesus Christ. (2 Thes 1:4-5) Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.

All: Amen. (Rom 11:36)

Communion Rite

The Lord’s Prayer:

All: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. (Matt 6:9-13)
Priest: Deliver us, Lord, we pray, from every evil, graciously grant peace in our days that by the help of your mercy, we may be always free from sin and safe from all distress, as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. (John 17:15)
All: For the kingdom the power and the glory are yours, now and forever. Amen

Priest: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles; I leave you peace, my peace I give to you. (John 14:27) Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live forever and ever.

Priest: The peace of the Lord be with you always! (John 20:19)

People: And with your spirit!

[The priest then directs the people to exchange a sign, such as a handshake or a kiss, or a word of God’s peace to one another.]

Breaking of the Bread

All: Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace. (John 1:29)

Communion

Priest: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those who are called to the supper of the Lamb. (Rev. 19:9)

People: Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed. (Matt 8:8)

[Communion is distributed to the faithful at the altar by the priest and lay ministers.]

Dismissal

Priest: Blessed be the name of the Lord. Now and forever. (Dan 2:20) May almighty God bless you, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:51) Go in peace (Luke 7:50) to love and serve the Lord. (2 Chr 35:3)[During the blessing the people make the Sign of the Cross, the traditional sign of the baptized and a public sign of their belief in the power of God.]

People: Thanks be to God. (2 Cor 9:15)


24 posted on 09/24/2013 2:22:37 AM PDT by verga (Lasciante ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.)
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To: MamaB

“I did not say I attended them. I have come across some on the Catholic network. I admit I do not watch many but the ones I did, never mentioned the Bible. “

Did you watch the whole thing? Because Mass starts with the first Bible reading (OT), then a reading from the Psalms, then the second Bible reading (OT), then the Gospel reading (NT). All from the Bible.

Last Sunday was: Amos 8:4-7; Psalm 113; 1 Timothy 2:1-8; Luke 16:1-13

After that is the homily (sermon) which is based on all the readings we have heard.


25 posted on 09/24/2013 4:33:42 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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Guess I should have read the whole thread before I posted. ;)


26 posted on 09/24/2013 4:36:25 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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To: MamaB
He was a kook but not as bad as the one from one of the Carolina’s. Forgot his name. Have not heard about him in years. He would call people who disagreed with him, dogs. Will have to do a search for him.

I believe that would be R G Stair. A real piece of work.

27 posted on 09/24/2013 5:08:32 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: MamaB
His name is Brother R. G. Stair. He is a cult leader. He use to be on 100+ stations which is down to 25 now.

Last I had heard of him, he was in jail, charged with rape. Do not know how that played out.

28 posted on 09/24/2013 5:10:35 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore; verga

I am amazed when they say not reading the bible. It’s a mind blower. Such a stupid stereo type to accepted. If you did not know do not discuss it. I once on this religion forum met a person who likes to talk at times with their stereo type opinions. He or she thought mass readings were psychic readings on the altar. This is someone who still talks nonsense. Astonishing.


29 posted on 09/25/2013 1:08:06 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace; Not gonna take it anymore

It is virtually impossible to have an intelligent conversation with a protestant.


30 posted on 09/25/2013 4:35:23 AM PDT by verga (Lasciante ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.)
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To: RCB-Catholic; DocRock; del4hope; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24; Ottofire; ...
Well worth clicking through and reading the entoire article.

The YBPDLNPL is generally published infrequently, but based on the exploits of the megachurch pastors posts can spike for a period of time. If you would like on or off of this list please FReepmail me.


31 posted on 09/26/2013 7:14:05 AM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: Fiji Hill

Nor are they spelled with a “C.”


32 posted on 09/26/2013 7:18:59 AM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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