Some thoughts on Holy Trinity from physicist's perspective

Pravda ^ | October 1, 2013 | Professor Michael Pravica, Ph.D

[DManA]

That's what he said about the Father.

Can God be contained in a box? No.

[cizinec]

Thank you for explaining that so that I don’t feel like I have to.

Essence vs. energies. Ousia vs. hypostases (something a lot of posters aren’t tracking).

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

This is over my head, but... I listened to a program on the Trinity on Catholic Answers recently, that gave me a new insight.

We all know that material analogies for the Trinity, like the shamrock, fail, and fail miserably.

When asked for his favorite analogy, the priest replied, "the family, because it is a loving communion of persons."

THAT seems like a very good analogy to me.

____________

I've often wondered about the ubiquitousness of the family in all times, and the inability of utopian societies to stamp it out, or transform it. It makes sense to me that this institution would be an image of the Trinity, since it is so mysterious, held together by love, and essentially indestructible.

[HomeAtLast]

God made everything. Including numbers. He can do what He likes with them.

[A child of Yah]

Why isn’t it just considered a dual nature or reality instead of a 3-part idea?

In the Gospel of John 4:24, it is written that our Heavenly Father is Spirit, and we should worship Him in spirit and in truth.

The 3rd part of the Trinity just seems to be a repeat of the first part, being that God the Father is that same Holy Spirit.

In my simple little mind, it just seems like there are two realities going on, consisting of the Spiritual Body-Father in the heavenly realm, and the flesh body-Son in this earthly realm.

Perhaps inside this earthly vessel we walk around in today is our spiritual body as well waiting to cross over into that heavenly realm when we return to the Father.

I also feel that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Breath of our Heavenly Father dwelling within us and leading and guiding us.

[Eepsy]

The problem with that is that The Son was The Son before he was Jesus. He was not always from before time of the flesh, but rather became incarnate from His previous state.

Frank Sheed had a rather good explanation of the Trinity in his book Theology and Sanity. Roughly, that the Son is the Father’s knowing of Himself and the Spirit is the Love between. It’s dense, but well worth a read.

http://www.katapi.org.uk/TandS/Ch7.html

[A child of Yah]

***He was not always from before time of the flesh, but rather became incarnate from His previous state***

What does that statement mean Eepsy?
What do you mean by previous state?

I’m pretty much self-taught, and yes, I will stumble along the way, but I’m having trouble interpreting that statement above, because Christ Jesus was before time of anything. He is the Word according to the Gospel of John 1, and all things were made by Him and there was nothing made without Him.

I also understand that Christ Jesus has appeared in and out of our physical realm before. He was even Melchizedek in Genesis. Christ Jesus speaks of Abraham seeing Him and was glad according to Gospel of John 8:46, and Hebrews 7:1 speaks of Him having no beginning of days or end of life.

I guess the names, places, and times can change here and there, but His face remains the same ... smiles ... I just love the LORD so much, and want to share His love with others, but I’m not too sure if I’m being misunderstood sometimes. Please help me to understand what you meant, and I’ll check back after lunchtime ... smiles again.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Child of Jah, you probably know that Jesus said to the Pharisees, "Before Abraham came to be, I AM." Revelation calls Him "the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world." The Gospel of John begins with the amazing passage that says the "Word" was with God, and was God."

So this second Person of the Trinity pre-existed eternally. He is co-eternal with the Father, according to Scripture.

When "the Word" was made flesh and dwelt amongst us, He took up and assumed a human nature and was conceived in the womb of the Virgin. Very recently: only about 2,000 years ago. But that same divine Person was always God through all eternity.

[A child of Yah]

***So this second Person of the Trinity pre-existed eternally. He is co-eternal with the Father, according to Scripture.***

Hi Mrs. Don-o ... pretty kool dual effort going on ... smiles

I guess you can see we were posting within seconds of each other, and I do believe the Father/Son are one, and if you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father according to the Gospel of John 14:9-11, but I think I’m being misunderstood in my assertion of the “Trinity”.

Maybe I can state it clearer somehow about why I look at it a little bit differently than others.

Trinity: 1) Father - 2) Son - 3) Holy Spirit = ONE
All 3 are One and the same, but it seems like Number 3 is already stated in Number 1 ... being that the Father is the Holy Spirit already as written in the Gospel of John 4:24.

Then to elaborate further:
There’s a Spiritual realm, and than there’s a physical realm-(flesh body). Father/Spiritual realm - Son/physical realm.

All that I’m trying to state is that the Father is the same thing as the Holy Spirit, and it’s just duplicating what is already known, that the Father is Spirit.

I guess I tend to look at it this way because after many years of discussing the Trinity with those of the world that think Christians worship 3 Gods instead of one, that it got me to thinking that the Holy Spirit is already God the Father, so why duplicate it again to end up with 3 forms.

It just made more sense to me that there is a Spiritual realm and a physical realm to explain it better, and at least I got some people to think about this 3 God theory they keep throwing around town, and I’ve basically narrowed it down to a 2 God theory so far ... smiles and shakes my head.

So I do feel like I’ve made some progress being that their foreign teachings of their book do state that Christ Jesus is the Word and Spirit of God-(quran/surah 4:171), which makes them rethink their stand.

They even thought the Virgin Mary was part of the Trinity too, because that’s what their book states, and I just shake my head and wonder how in the world did they come up with such stuff, but then again, the fruit of their tree explains it all.

I wanted to ask you something else, but it is on a different subject and I don’t want to throw the thread, plus I’ve already taken up enough space here already ... smiles again

[Mrs. Don-o]

Please excuse me, but I'm unsure of what you're saying. On the one hand, you say you accept that the second Person of the Trinity is co-eternal with the Father; then you say that the Father corresponds to the Spiritual realm, and the Son to the physical realm. That can't be if the Son was existing for all eternity, but was not physical until his conception in the womb of Mary.

It seems that the Great Commission with its instructions for Baptism in the Three Names, and the theophanies at Jesus' Baptism and at Jesus' Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, indicate the Threeness in the Oneness of God.

I can't go much beyond that. I hardly think I'm right to even discuss such things, except on my knees.

Goodbye, I must clean up my kitchen!

[A child of Yah]

***...but was not physical until his conception in the womb of Mary.***

I can’t help to think that I just wore out my welcome...sighs.

Anyhoo ... Christ Jesus has been in and out of our realm in physical form, because even Abraham seen Him and was glad. He can be in the Spiritual realm and in the physical realm at anytime He needs be.

By stating it the way I state it is not undermining His Power or Authority at all. For it is all His. Be He here, there, or anywhere. When we cross over to the other side of this reality we will be in spiritual bodies too, but while we are in this earthly reality we have a physical form. That’s all it means.

Forgive me for imposing upon you in my learning process, and I hope for a restful evening for you and yours. Merci beaucoup

[Talisker]

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. "How can three be one and yet be distinct at the same time?"

Easy.

So God's like a balloon, and we're all inside the balloon. God sticks his fingers into the balloon from the outside, so the balloon fingers are inside the balloon. Those fingers are the Son. Then the fingers move around and do stuff. The movement of those fingers is the Holy Spirit. And what those fingers accomplish while moving around, is Grace.

So how can God be both the balloon and the hand poking into the balloon?

Well, God is like a tree. The trunk of a tree is solid like the balloon, but the branches can bend all the way around and poke into the trunk.

And that's it. God is like a tree acting like a balloon, and thereby manifesting the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matt 13:34

[Mrs. Don-o]

Bartender, I'll have what he's having.

:o)

[RobbyS]

Jesus is the Word incarnate.

[infool7]

I don't remember where I saw it first but I've been thinking of it like this lately, here goes.

God is the Lord God Creator King who spoke(sung maybe) the One Word (Uni-Verse, is that the meaning in Latin?) through the Holy Spirit. There is a Chorus of Angels and we are His Refrain. Alleluia Alleluia

[Vision Thing]

First we have Putin being more Christian than the putz who currently resides in the White House, and now this from Pravda?

It reminds me of the passage in the Book of Acts where they talk about the world turning upside down for the sake of Christianity.

[Vision Thing]

“These are the three phases of nature, and each pure substance can exist in the three phases.”

But the difficulty in relating this to the Holy Trinity is that a substance can be in only one of the three states at a time, moving from one state to another via a phase change.

Whereas the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit exist together simultaneously at all times. At least, that’s the impression I get from my meager reading of the Bible. :)

[Vision Thing]

“I confess that I am not clear on the fourth dimension.”

All this talk of the Holy Trinity and dimensions kinda reminds me of C. S. Lewis’s attempt to clarify it:

“In God’s dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube.”

The passage is from Mere Christianity.

[don-o]

He can be in the Spiritual realm and in the physical realm at anytime He needs be.

Recall how He appeared after The Resurrection. On the Emmaus road, the was not recognized by the disciples until He broke the bread. Was His physical appearance changed? I have wondered about that.

The Apostles recognized Him, but thought Him to be a ghost. Later, when Thomas saw him, The Lord told him to touch him and put his hand into His wounds to confirm that He was solid matter.

Then, at the end He levitates before their eyes.

We are not given clear explanations of how all this hangs together, because our puny minds are incapable. But, He said that he would return to the Father - which to us might indicate a place. Or we might understand it as a spiritual state. But, does our understanding of "spiritual" completely define what that state is in reality? I think not

"Eye hat not seen..."

[pravica]

For the record, I submitted this piece to over 20 MSM newspapers in the US to find it censored. Pravda is one of the few international media outlets willing to present alternative points of view from what the US State Department wants you to hear. Let’s face it folks, our government is anti-Christian! Thanks to everyone for you interesting comments on my article!