Skip to comments.Report: Are Mormon Missionaries Safe While Serving The Church? [10 deaths]
Posted on 10/03/2013 5:22:07 AM PDT by Colofornian
(Salt Lake City, UT) With ten deaths involving missionaries with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, some are questioning the safety of the churchs youth. The Salt Lake Tribune asked the question of church officials, who said missionaries are safe and will continue to serve the church. The church noted three of the deaths were from natural causes, while four died from an illness. There are currently 75-thousand men and women serving the church on a mission worldwide, which is up 28-percent, primarily due to the church lowering the missionary age from 19 to 18.
Perhaps Mormon parents should "rethink" entrusting missionary presidents & the entire Mormon proselyting enterprise and stop funding it all.
That is really an unfair question.
Really any missionary is unsafe no matter what part of the world they go to. I have had (Baptist) missionaries in my own family so believe me I know!
Seems pretty safe to me, statistically. Some died from illness, probably would have died anyway. Some died in accidents, just like young adults in any occupation. Etc.
Fun fact: 100% of everyone who ever eats carrots will die. STOP EATING CARROTS.
OMG. I know you really dislike the Mormons and their church. To include in your links BOYSCOUTS who were aged 12 and out camping seems to be more than a little gratuitous.
The boys parents are suing for ridiculous reasons if you read the article. PLUS there is no indication that they are Mormons (I know Utah etc etc).
Some day I hope you find some peace
My wife uncle is a SBC pastor and have spent most of the past 20 years in Peru. He has been held up and robbed, and never sleeps outside of a high fence.
Give it a rest. With the country truly falling apart and devolving into a complete communist state, it seems as if you are finding motes and ignoring logs
(Anti-First Amendment, too, eh?)
With the country truly falling apart and devolving into a complete communist state...
Unlike the Silent Generation, which was able to multi-task and take on more than one opposition at a time during WWII -- on multiple fronts each -- too many conservatives (like yourself) can't seem to be bothered with more than a solo task staring them in the face...No wonder we can't fight public battles effectively today.
And...from an eternal perspective, even what is going on in the USA today is merely but a backyard bonfire compared to the fires of hell.
To cite Jesus: 4 I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
No...don't fear the communists Jesus would tell Nifster...for communists are mere "motes" compared to eternal judgment.
And if memory these church related bus accidents happen some what frequency, does that mean Baptists are "poor guardians of their flock"?
I don't believe it but I don't believe Mormons nor Baptist, Methodists or Catholic missionaries wantonly put their believers in jeopardy. Accidents happen to all people, of whatever faiths or non believers.
Yes, sir! If I must..
I hate carrots.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
'Twas a chartered bus. As far as I know, the busdriver wasn't a baptist. So try another tact if you're wanting to make a point worth considering.
In contrast, let's take the Boy Scout comparison I made in my initial post: Lds churches treat the Boy Scouts like a church youth group. Its lay leaders are "called" to Boy Scout leadership positions...and thus, those are Lds members.
As such, they act as both direct SPIRITUAL and physical guardians of these kids.
Of course, accidents happen to all families -- no matter what stripe they wear. Of course, missionaries of all denominations have died.
What I am talking about is how there seems to be such a great concentration of these for a people group that is only 1.7% of our population.
Two examples just from the New Testament:
* "For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things." (Phillippians 3:18)
A glutton's god can be his/her tummy.
5 "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry." (Colossians 3:5)
Greed can also be an atheist's "replacement" God.
It can also be lust. Or just self-worship in general.
Aside from then this being simply a "mathematical" issue -- as your quote portends -- with Mormonism 'tis also an entirely different GOD altogether.
Fairy Tales or corrupted and bastardized history books constitute not a religion unless for cowards, hypocrites, and charlatans.
There is a reason your ancestors worshipped the sun....
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours
Key word: Understand
I read recently where 4000 or so college students die every year.
RM, please review your post #11. What was the focus?
Is a chartered budriver a "shepherd" of his "flock"???
Now name me any state or country that has had even close to 6 incidents involving 7 Boy Scout deaths in a 50-month period.
If we were insurance agents discussing traffic accidents that occur in the U.S., we could both "high-five" each other in agreement that such accidents occur in EVERY county of the U.S...and whereever cars run worldwide for that matter.
But don't try to con us in claiming that just because such accidents happen "everywhere" that insurance rates are equal across the board in every county of this country.
I've seen online lists of worst cities for accidents. Some areas of the country feature excellent "asphalt neighbors"; others, just the opposite.
To hear you tell it, if we applied your logic to auto accidents, those who assess auto insurance rates should simply ignore that accidents are MULTIPLIED in certain cities of this country and they should simply dish out a one-size fits all rate.
That's probably accurate...I found one source that seemed to say that the death rate per college student was about 22.4 per 100,000. And the Mormons have had 10 this year (more than one per month avg) among about 75,000. So the Mormons would need to have 16-17 deaths -- 6 or 7 more in the remaining three months of 2013 -- to equal a rate equivalent.
But these Lds missionaries are your more "valiant" Mormons ... the BYU types. So a fair comparison would be to compare the death rate among BYU students vs. Lds missionaries. I presently don't have those stats...but could easily conclude that it would have been safer for Lds missionaries to be BYU students in 2013.
Your 4,000 deaths per year among college students could be accurate...there's almost (at least) 17.5 million students.
Btw...for more on these missionary deaths, See: With 10 deaths this year: Are Mormon missionaries safe?
No I am not anti-first amendment. No where does ANYTHING I have said suggest that.
You need to get your knickers untwisted and breathe a little bit.
If you were opposing Obama on FR, and I told you to "give it a rest," what might one conclude? (Besides political lunacy, that is)
Sorry...but your comparison doesn't "compute" -- even from a simple mathematical comparison.
Question: What would have been the "martyr" rate among those disciples had they done what the Mormon missionaries do -- and thereby limited their travels to just two years.
Obviously we don't have an exact answer for that. But I don't believe too many if any of them died within a few years after Jesus' death.
ALSO: What this article shows is that Mormons are now averaging more than one missionary death per month -- and NONE of them are from your injection of PERSECUTION.
Several years ago 2 missionaries were murdered up in Springfield,MO. Tragic loss. Very fine, dedicated people. The French recently lost a medical team in Africa. Nuns among them. Murdered by the adherents of Islam. Life anywhere is dangerous...
You managed to avoid dealing with the WHOLE post which put my comment in context. I asked you to give it a rest because we are fighting far larger battles than whether you hate the mormons or not.
Right now the communists are working very very hard to destroy this country along with their muslim buddies. During WWII we didn’t fight the Russians because we were too busy fighting the PRIMARY threat of the hour...the Axis powers.
Pick your battles and you might actually find success.
By the way the folks who spend their time spewing Alex Jones’ paranoia on this sight (and there are some) get the same comment from me.
At least if this is the battle you are going to fight try and make some rational arguments instead of sighting an article which is about boy scouts. Logic is crucial in all cases. If you are perceived as foaming at the mouth (like so many on the liberal left seem to do) then one tends to lose the ability to convince anyone.
Yelling louder or posting more does not win the day
You actually defeat your own purpose here.
If the content of this thread isn't worth discussing (at least in comparison to "other more important subject matters" on other threads)...
If people's efforts (toward whatever other "causes" or "campaigns" you would like to redirect them to) are better spent elsewhere...
...what are YOU doing here -- diluting your own efforts to fight such battles?
In fact, unless you are being some kind of FR instigator/activist, what are you even doing on FR at all??? (Versus being on actual socio-political "frontlines")
Where do you flesh out your contentions?
You've obviously chosen this thread as one of your "battles of the day."
IOW, your actions belie your words.
Furthermore, IF what you say is "so"...you would ensure that the "proper battles" for FREEPERS to fight -- whatever they might be -- at least get "proper" thread attention...
...and YOU, Nifster, as the "frontline" control person you're seeking to be...
...Can't do that by failure to post ANY THREAD at all over these past 13 months...
...And you Can't do that by posting ONLY two threads at all in the near 48 months that you've been a FREEPER.
Put your threads where your claims are.
And if this thread is diluting attention from where it needs to be, then be consistent and stop letting it divert your attention from where you claim it needs to be.
I take it then, Nifty, that if we're to follow your glorious thread leadership: That we should really be focusing on...
and (b) moving company recommendations...
Because THOSE encompass the entirety of the "key battles" that you've actually taken the time to post threads about...
(Be sure to let us know when you've moved on to other fast food & transportation companies so that we can rush to those threads of vital import)
You’re making a fool of yourself. You might want to take a deep breath and re-think you’re strategy of witnessing for Christ by insulting virtually everyone with whom you communicate.
Mr. Lucky's sermon-of-the-day "takeaway": "Fools, thou shalt not insult others"
I think you’ve made my point quire adequately.
And you showed — by example — your blatant inconsistent hypocrisy better than any accusation could ever register. Thank you.
(1) I never said they were indifferent to these deaths.
(2) Incompetence at the outing/camp level among some doesn't = out and out incompetence across the board.
My nephew just made Eagle Scout and he is a...drum roll please...Byzantine Catholic. Nothing to do with LDS, I doubt my sister-in-law even knows what LDS is. Boy Scouts are guided by many leaders of many religions.
I have many LDS neighbors, they support their children joining Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, 4H, and FFA in my area. My kids were in those organizations with the LDS children and the Catholic Church is pretty well represented here as well. The LDS nor any other religious group took over any of the kid’s organizations, nor did they try to. The adults became leaders, in about the same numbers as non-LDS; and their kids served as officers but not in any greater number than other groups around here. There was no take-over or religion interjected by LDS.
LDS also encourages military service, I haven’t heard whether they have managed to take over the military yet but in my opinion they would do a far better job than the current Commander in Chief.
What are you so bent out of shape about?
If a parent has an 18 yo choosing to go into the military, for example, some article on the "risks" of being in various branches of the military would be appropriate to discuss.
This is THE first year that the LDS Church has allowed 18 yo to become missionaries; parents should at least weigh risks as they would having a kid go into the military.
There's nothing sinister 'bout that...
If you broke down these deaths case by case, I would say the majority of these specific missionaries would be alive if they didn't go.
In your other recent post, you want to discuss ONLY overall world death rates of similarly aged males.
Quite impersonal and abstract, I might add...because it doesn't address the realities of MOST of these specific missionaries: Would they have died in their young adult years had they stayed home from the mission field? That is the key question for their family members, not some impersonal abstract death rate you cite of any given citizen of the entire world.
**Report: Are Mormon Missionaries Safe While Serving The Church?**
I should hope so. I would hope they don’t send out missionaries who are dangerous!
Well, there's true missionary work in Christ...
...and then there's counterfeit proselytization...
Take some of those who proselyted for Jim Jones, for example...
If we could place a spotlight upon say a few individuals who successfully recruited some people to come to Jonestown in Guyana...
...and say none of these spotlighted individuals actually wound up giving any koolaid to anybody there [IoW, they weren't active murderers]
...In fact, let's go further & say they were among the few who didn't commit suicide there...
...I don't think in hindsight you would be glorifying the "individual freedom" or "pursuing life to its fullest" theme-kick you've gotten on...
I mean, these people successfully brought people into a cult whereby the newbies committed suicide -- or were murdered...
And what is true in the physical realm (death) has a spiritual parallel: Eternal death, what the book of Revelation calls the second death...IoW counterfeit missionary work resulting in eternal death simply isn't laudable...
You stated: That's what individual freedom is all about..
Much to your potential chagrin, Jesus...for example...didn't glorify ALL of the proselytization under the sun -- as you might do:
Allow me to give you one example where Jesus didn't hoorah the proselyting activity of the Pharisees:
15 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are." (Matthew 23:15)
So go right ahead, RM...if you might chide me on my lack of "freedom" approaches on this...just be sure you chide Jesus, too for His lack of tolerance on that matter.
Hey, if you want to glorify...
...without qualifications or caveats...
...ALL proselytization under the sun...
...whether it was the Rajneeshees in Oregon in the 1980s -- where some of the women were raped at that cult...
...or David Berg's cult (Children of God/The Family), whereby Berg allegedly was guilty of pedophilia & other deviant sex (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berg)...
...or wiccan witchcraft recruiting teens...
...or Muslim missionary work that's been done out of Pakistan going back to at least the 1980s...
...etc etc etc...
...as go right ahead, your accountability to a living God will come...
As for me...no...
I don't laud those Rajneeshees who recruited women to come to Oregon to be raped...
...or those who conned some into joing Berg's cult...only to be sexually abused (Koresh was another one like this)...
...or Heaven's Gate recruiters in San Diego who "missionary-ized" gullibles to believing that suicide was the doorway to getting in touch with aliens...
But if you want to treat "missionaries" as a one-size-fits all -- with zero recognition of any counterfeiters out there to the "real thing"
-- and frame their activity as allegedly "living life to the fullest"...
...then I gotta say it: You really haven't taken a very close look at the broad scope of "religion" -- have you?
You really have gone round the bend
Because I respond to posts rather than posting lots and lots is irrelevant. The posts you refer to are old. I asked for specific information from FR folks because I trust them. I received a most excellent referral and was successful in moving some family heirlooms.
The fact that you get so angry with anyone who does not agree with says much
What I am talking about is how there seems to be such a great concentration of these for a people group that is only 1.7% of our population.
How would you know? You only data mine the Mormon disasters. Now if you actually dug down and did some real research and analysis, you might be able to make a case. But when you research no comparative data, your conclusions are simply made up out of whole cloth.
Somebody who is supposedly so keen on trying to knock down threads that they believe dilute our attention from whatever key battles that they think we need to fight should better have a pulpit from which to preach upon...and frankly, you don't.
You defeat your own stances on this.
If you are such a marvelous director of being able to "ID" where our attention needs to be focused, you'd have links to threads you've posted all lined up...but you don't.
And if this thread is diluting attention from where it needs to be, by you focusing your attention here defeats your own claim. You would instead be so busy on threads re: subject matter that supposedly REALLY needs our focus, that you would bypass this one. But you don't...therefore you have only reinforced the very vitality of this thread.
Thank you for that.