Pope Pius IX and the Confederacy

http://catholicknight.blogspot.com ^ | February 2, 2009 | CatholicKnight

[NKP_Vet]

One of the most overlooked facts of the American Civil War Era is the sympathy the South gained from Europe's most influential monarch - the pope of Rome.

Pope Pius IX never actually signed any kind of alliance or 'statement of support' with the Confederate States of America, but to those who understand the nuance of papal protocol, what he did do was quite astonishing. He acknowledged President Jefferson Davis as the "Honorable President of the Confederate States of America."

News of this reached the North, and the Whitehouse was considerably irate about it, prompting a response from the Vatican that the pope's letter did not amount to an "official" recognition in the "formal sense."

The pope's letter to Jefferson Davis was accompanied by an autographed picture of the pope.

From this we can glean three things about Pope Pius IX...

He called Jefferson Davis by the customary title "Honorable." He acknowledged him as president of a nation. In doing so, he (at least on a personal level) effectively recognized the Confederate States of America as a sovereign entity, separate from the United States of America.

[Verginius Rufus]

There is a street in Macon, Georgia, named Pio Nono.

[RBStealth]

Lincoln was a racist bigot of the first degree. He thought the white man was superior to the black man in intelligence and should always be his master. The quotes are all over the internet. Historical quotes from Ape Lincoln.


Nature vs. Nurture arguments probably were not settled back then. At the time of the Civil War most or most probably nearly all thought it was nature(genetics,birth) over nurture(wealth, privilege, access to opportunity, education). In many ways, or most ways, Black culture and Black community has devolved from what it was 40,50, 60 years ago. In some ways it is worse than at the time of the Civil War from a spiritual/religious perspective. But aint that true for all of us, all of our cultures,communities?

[Zionist Conspirator]

Some people sure do hold a grudge.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I just want to thank you again for defending the United States of America, its President, and the Republican party at the time of the infamous Rebellion.

I really have nothing to add to all this heat being generated by people who can't get over losing than to point out, once again, that seven states seceded before Lincoln was even inaugurated--indeed, simply because he was elected! And why? Did they think he was going to issue some sort of executive order ending slavery? He was not, and they all knew it (as some of the more honest ones admit). They pulled out because their plan to spread slavery until it was legal and iron-clad in every state and territory of the Union ran into some people who were sick to death of being threatened, terrorized, and murdered every time they objected to it.

Never let it be forgotten that the Republican party was founded as a single issue party, and that single issue was the non-extension of slavery.

[Sherman Logan]

The way I see it, I’m not so much defending Lincoln as opposing the lies told about him. Lincoln and his legacy can defend itself.

I dislike lies told for political or ideological reasons, whatever the cause. I’ve been attacked for doing so by pro-Mormons and anti-Mormons, by Israeli and Palestinian advocates, by Muslim apologists and Muslim-haters, by birthers and anti-birthers, and by several other pairs of opposites.

The way I figure it, if you can’t attack an opponent with the truth, just shut up until you find truthful ammo. Easily disproven falsehoods just weaken your own case when found out. And if there really isn’t any particularly good truthful ammo around, possibly you should reconsider your position.

[rockrr]

Yea - if you want to call time with the whip “personal interaction”.

*rollseyes*

[FourtySeven]

Oh my goodness, a thread about the Civil War AND Catholicism.

Is it possible for a thread to go to a TRILLION posts?

[celmak]

"Is it possible for a thread to go to a TRILLION posts?"

OTFLOL !!!

It was worth coming here just for yours!

[rockrr]

Think how many we would get if they could loop immigration reform into it ;’)

[NKP_Vet]

Absolute amazes me that the Lincoln idolaters can read his exact racist and lying words about not wanting to end slavery, and they still come to his defense and say he was misquoted. Want to know the difference in democrat, liberal Lincoln idolators and republican idolators? Not one damn thing. They all love the country’s first big government socialist president. The first “do-gooder” president that wanted all power consolidated in the Executive Branch. Abe
Lincoln, the nation’s first dictator mascarading as president.

[RobbyS]

Until the summer of 1862, Lincoln denied that his aim was to free the slaves. He still had hopes of persuading the slaveowners of the border states to end the war, appealing to the plain fact that the war itself was unraveling the institution in their states and that he was willing to compensate them if they agreed to emancipate their slaves who had jumped the plantation and were, ironically, clogging the operations of the Union Army. Lincoln even sat down and figured out that paying each slaveowner market price would be cheaper than continuing the war. The owners were irate, because—for one thing—they had no clue about how to use the money they would get for investment in other activities, much less how to use it to pay workers to continue on their plantations.

[ek_hornbeck]

It’s kind of ironic that the antebellum South (and the Confederacy) was much more friendly towards Catholics than were many of the northern cities, especially considering the anti-Catholic direction that the Klan later took.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Absolute amazes me that the Lincoln idolaters can read his exact racist and lying words about not wanting to end slavery, and they still come to his defense and say he was misquoted.

And yet, somehow, by the time Lincoln was murdered, slavery was dead.

Here's what Lincoln had to say in a private letter, not in some campaign speech (and read what Douglas was saying in those debates sometime).

You know I dislike slavery; and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it. ... I also acknowledge your rights and my obligations, under the constitution, in regard to your slaves. I confess I hate to see the poor creatures hunted down, and caught, and carried back to their stripes, and unrewarded toils; but I bite my lip and keep quiet. In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio, there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continued torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border. It is hardly fair for you to assume, that I have no interest in a thing which has, and continually exercises, the power of making me miserable. You ought rather to appreciate how much the great body of the Northern people do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the Constitution and the Union. . . How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty— to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be take pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

It’s kind of ironic that the antebellum South (and the Confederacy) was much more friendly towards Catholics than were many of the northern cities

That's mainly the result of demographics and economic competition. No place in the US was particularly anti-Catholic when Catholics were scarce. But the wave of Irish immigration changed that, and almost all of that immigration was to the north for the simple reason that there were jobs at the lowest rung there, while those jobs were taken by slaves in the south. A lot of antipathy towards groups can be seen as economically based.

[Sherman Logan]

Lincoln even sat down and figured out that paying each slaveowner market price would be cheaper than continuing the war.

Well, not really. There were roughly 4M slaves and at $1000 each, high but not wildly so, that is $4B. The whole war cost the Union (wartime costs only) something around $2.5B.

Otherwise, I agree with you. But the costs involved are one reason the whole situation was so intractable.

[mac_truck]

Rochester. N.Y. August 17. 1865.

Mrs. Abraham Lincoln:

Dear Madam: Allow me to thank you as I certainly do thank you most sincerely for your thoughtful kindness in making me the owner of a cane which was formerly the property and the favorite walking staff of your late laminted husband - the honored and venerated President of the United States.

I assure you, that this inestimable memento of his presidency will be retained in my possession while I live - an object of sacred interest - a token not merely of the kind consideration in which I have reason to know that the President was pleased to hold me personally, but as an indication of his humane interest [in the] welfare of my whole race.

With every proper sentiment of Respect and Esteem, I am, Dear Madam, your obedient,

Frederick Douglass

[ek_hornbeck]

That's mainly the result of demographics and economic competition. No place in the US was particularly anti-Catholic when Catholics were scarce. But the wave of Irish immigration changed that, and almost all of that immigration was to the north for the simple reason that there were jobs at the lowest rung there, while those jobs were taken by slaves in the south. A lot of antipathy towards groups can be seen as economically based.

Good point. When any ethnic or religious minority is rare in a society, its members are seen as a harmless curiosity rather than being a target of prejudice. Once the numbers of the same group become high enough, they're seen as potential rivals rather than quaint curiosities.

[donmeaker]

Since many slave owners, like R.E. Lee or Jefferson Davis fathered children on their slaves, that interaction could be very close and personal.