The Great Apostasy [Mormonism labels ALL Protestant, Catholic & Orthodox churches 'apostate']

Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Aaron Shafovaloff

[jodyel]

LOL...you mean just like the Catholics.

Seems Mormons and Catholics have tons of stuff in common and none of it true Christianity.

[jodyel]

Oh, they’ll tell you if they think you are wrong, katana. And everyone who is against them is wrong.

[jodyel]

Can’t be bashing Christians cause Mormons are not Christian.

[Claud]

Have they convinced the Roman Catholics? My understanding is that the Roman Catholics hold that the Mormons are heretics.

This is a gross oversimplification, but the Orthodox are pretty much regarded as schismatic but not necessarily heretical members of the Church, Protestants as validly baptized but heretical members of the Church, and Mormons as not even members of the Church.

As far as Catholic sacramental theology is concerned, since Mormon baptism is invalid, its recipients are not really in any better position than pagans, notwithstanding its Christian roots.

If Catholics defend Mormonism it's probably just an accident of both being minorities in a mostly Protestant country. But in the big picture we have much less in common with them than with Protestants. Father de Smet compared them to Muslims, and not favorably:

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/events/mormons.htm

[old and tired]

Their BIGGEST bone of contention now with Protestant churches is the authority to administer the Sacraments (baptism/communion).

Not really. A Baptism with water in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is valid. Catholics may only validly receive the sacrament of Holy Communion in Churches where there is a belief in transubstantiation. The only non-Catholic Churches that I'm aware of that hold this belief are the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and probably the Coptics. However, we must be invited to receive there as it is my understanding that some Orthodox Churches object to Catholics receiving.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Yet another Christian-bashing thread.
Aren’t you liberals supposed to be spitting on soldiers today?”

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lol, you will quickly find that, aside from maybe your Mormon buddies or a few of the apostates on this forum, no Christian conservative considers the LDS with its polygamous gods to be “Christian,” but the very essence of the absurdities that the devil drives men into.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“The LDS might teach that, but every time I have seen the whore of Babylon/goddess worshipping idolaters/he who is not to be named on the religion forum drek/Catholic Church is a nonChristian cult garbage about the Catholic Church on FR, it has come from other sorts of Christians, not LDS.”

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Usually this starts because Catholics pick fights on FR and then lose them, and then they troll perfectly good threads where we can face down what is clearly damning error, and they insert stuff like “you guys are just like Mormons anyway.” Don’t be surprised if Catholics who do this get responses in kind for their arrogance.

[Colofornian]

The Great Apostasy [Mormonism labels ALL Protestant, Catholic & Orthodox churches ‘apostate’] WoW.... what a bazaar statement....ON the Other hand.... SOME OF THEM ARE... [Hosepipe]

LOL...you mean just like the Catholics. Seems Mormons and Catholics have tons of stuff in common and none of it true Christianity. [jodyel, post #41]

If you go back to my post #6, there's at least one point there that not only Mormons need to listen to, but fellow Protestants as well:

Martin Luther NEVER saw himself as beginning a "new church" from scratch. The REFORMERS saw themselves as REFORMERS only!

Hence note the quote in the article of this thread: ecclesia semper reformans, semper reformanda - "the church is always reformed and always reforming."

I then said in post #6: Has the historic Christian church always been in need of ongoing reformation? Of course!

I added other comments there...one being that: "Mormonism makes a mockery of the apostle Paul as an apostle, had a complete apostasy already occurred."

And PROTESTANTS too, dare not make this same mistake!

As I cite this verse below -- I am applying it to the pre-Martin Luther reformation years of the Catholic Church:

The apostle Paul prophesied -- in Ephesians 3:21:

21 Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen. [KJV]

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory IN THE CHURCH church and in Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS, FOR EVER AND EVER! Amen.

[Ephesians 3, NIV]

Question now for you fellow Protestants who want to condemn the pre-Luther reformation years of the Catholic church to total apostasy: What part of "in the church"..."throughout all ages/generations"... & "for ever & ever/world without end" don't you understand?

Yes, the 16th century (& before) Catholic church was badly in need of reformation; but be careful --lest you wind up calling the apostle Paul a "false prophet" for his declaration in Ephesians 3:21!

Per the prophetic declaration of Eph. 3:21, God in fact DID receive glory -- even if limited in many ways -- from those within the Catholic church prior to the Reformation.

[Ransomed]

I know. The Catholics are really asking for it. Just look at all the Catholic provocations to non-Catholic Christians on this thread, it’s a wonder we haven’t seen even more righteous and justified proclamations from non-Catholic Christians about the Catholic Church being a nonChristian cult than we have already.

Freegards

[donmeaker]

I figure that Paul was talking about the catholic church, and the current organization is the Catholic church. One is the universal community of believers, and the second is the commercial brand of one small part of that community.

[Elsie]

(Hey West, I want to be on your list too!)

Don't you be lustin' after MY position!

[Elsie]

Yet when a few online individuals stand up to this extreme disregard & bad-mouthing & intolerance, they become the targets.

You OUGHTA be a target!

--MormonDude(still mad about the election...)

[Elsie]

And, he probably believed that Mary is DEAD!

[Elsie]

Yet another Christian-bashing thread.

Another low information person who can't tell a HERETIC from a CHRISTIAN.

[Elsie]

Mormons beware…

Speaking of revelation...

Their very own Living Prophet #2 has said:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

[Elsie]

But at the end of the day I know I am saved by the Grace of Our Lord Christ Jesus.

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What do you WANT to be called?

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What Joseph Smith Means to Us  (From: various sources )

 

 

 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

 

 

 

 

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

 

 

 

 

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

 

 

 

 

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

 

 

 

 

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

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They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

[Colofornian]

A multiple-segment challenge to ALL Mormons:

STEP ONE

Read the "First Vision" account of Joseph Smith in the Pearl of Great Price...

(a) See if you can find EVEN ONCE where the entity that appeared to Smith is DIRECTLY referenced as God or as Jesus.

(Yes, there is a reference to one entity being the "son" of the other...but other than that they are unnamed)

(b) Concentrate especially upon verses 18-20...and then ask yourself:
* Do I believe that 100% of the Christian creeds are an "abomination" to God? [If you're not sure on this...read "The Apostles Creed" -- and then ask yourself what is so "abominable" about that???]

STEP TWO

Now read ... and re-read Ephesians 3:20-21 from your own Bible.

The apostle Paul prophesied -- in Ephesians 3:21:

21 Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen. [KJV]

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory IN THE CHURCH church and in Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS, FOR EVER AND EVER! Amen.

[Ephesians 3, NIV]

Now ask yourself:
* Do I believe God has received glory in the so-called pre-restored churches -- in EVERY generation???
* And: If I believe God received such glory, then why was a total restoration from scratch even needed?

CONCLUSION

If The Apostles Creed is not an "abomination" -- then the unnamed entity who told Smith it was was wrong. And if God has received glory in ALL generations IN THE CHURCH (Eph. 3:21), then the claims of total apostasy made by Mormon leaders are wrong. And they -- NOT the apostle Paul -- are the false prophets here.

What's it going to be?

Will you embrace Eph. 3:21...or the words of an unnamed entity who Smith said appeared to him?

[Elsie]

Praying to dead saints, keeping dead saints bodies in glass coffins for all to walk by and gawk at, fall down at the least little ghostly demonic apparition that resembles Mary, and on and on.

Same with Mormonism.

[Colofornian]

--MormonDude(still mad about the election...)

Elz -- and others: Scan this thread's article re: what Mormons say they believe about Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox church members...and then ask:

What? This is what Mitt Romney REALLY believes about the Christians he was asking to vote for him?

(No wonder Romney failed to inspire many Christians to vote for him! Romney, indirectly via his mega-$ support of the Mormon church, was attacking Christians to a high degree like Obama's been!)

[Colofornian]

LOL