What if ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ is Wrong?

The Christian Diarist ^ | October 20, 2013 | JP

[boatbums]

Paul's point is not "once saved, always saved." (although this is true). His point is the fact that when one is saved BY GOD, God does not change His mind. The rescue is simply a product of His own power and promise. It is no longer in the hands of the man/woman. They could not get themselves into salvation; they cannot get themselves out. To those on the outside of this understanding, this may seem like a "free ticket" to sin. But, they do not realize they are holding a much more dangerous view..."at least I do not sin like those people". Oh, yes, you do...all the time. Now what?

Very well said! Anyone who reads and meditates on God's word - aided by the illumination of the Holy Spirit - recognizes that NOTHING they bring before the Mercy Seat can make propitiation for their sins (and you are correct that sinning is as much internal as it is external). That's the WHOLE point of the law - as a schoolmaster to bring us to the grace of God in Christ Jesus. How foolish people can be when they imagine God is pleased by their efforts, works, deeds and attitudes when brought before Him to recompense for all our sins rather than the filthy rags that they really are!

Had any person been capable of saving himself by himself, there would have been NO need for Christ to have suffered and died. In light of that, how equally foolish to think our efforts, that could do nothing to win our salvation at the start, will benefit the keeping of that gracious gift to the end. It's either grace all the way, or works all the way - not both!

[verga]

Don’t you just love how people are always telling you you’re wrong without telling you HOW you’re wrong?

Or telling you why they’re right?

Even better is when a Catholic shows a protestant the text in the original Greek, supplies 12 examples and the protest jumps to the tertiary definition bypassing the primary and even the secondary definitions trying to claim victory.

[redleghunter]

I don't see how it is.

Romans 8:

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

[verga]

I thought the Rosary is now called the Divine Mercy? Well I do know my mother is faithful in her daily Divine Mercy.

There are two separate recitations. The Rosary promulgated by St. Louis DE Montfort, and the Divine Mercy Chaplet http://thedivinemercy.org/message/devotions/praythechaplet.php

Don't know if you have heard. The Catholic NABRE is now on line:

I have that on my "favorites " list at work and at home. Our server at work is having issues and 3 days out of 5 my favorites does not show up.

[verga]

Now if someone set up a soap box outside and proclaimed the Gospel and those who were spiritually sick came forward to hear, that is a different matter.

Exactly the point I was making. THANK YOU!

[smvoice]

AMEN! How much plainer can it get? Dutchboy, your post was excellent!! If, after reading these two posts, anyone can walk away thinking they can lose their salvation, then they probably can. Not because God chooses to loose them from the Body, but because they were never part of the body to begin with. How can a Body be severed and still live? It cannot. And the Body of Christ is a living organism. It can no more lose a finger or a leg and remain intact than we can lose a leg and be able to tap dance.

[Iscool]

"Again" is a tertiary definition. If Jesus had truly meant again He would have used "Palon."

You are just plain wrong.

Yep...I and most of the bible translators out there are wrong...And you are right...

Nicodemus acknowledges that the requirement is to be born a second time (again)...

Peter says we are 'born again'...

ἄνωθεν
anōthen
an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

I don't understand your fixation with this...Obviously anothen can mean from above, from the first, anew, again, from the beginning, and the top...

None of those completes the context of the narrative as well as the word again...That's why most of the 'scholars' chose again...It can mean any one of those words but 'again' fits the bill the best...

We were born once, but we must be born 'again', from above...What is your problem???

If Jesus had truly meant again He would have used "Palon."

Well tell us more, Carnac...

[CynicalBear]

>> It's either grace all the way, or works all the way - not both!<<

Amen and Amen!!

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Hoodat]

No, He was not

Then how were they able to prophesy, heal the sick, perform deliverance, etc?

. . . or they would not have rejected.

Rejected what? What is it that they rejected?

[xzins]

That should have had a "been" prior to the rejected: "or they would not have been rejected."

False prophets have power, apparently:

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

[Hoodat]

False prophets have power, apparently

So again where does this power come from?

Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.”

But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

Luke 9:49-50

[xzins]

Godly power comes from God. Ungodly power does not.

[Hoodat]

That goes without saying. So this power had to be from God. Correct?

[xzins]

Luke 9, yes

Matthew 7, no

[Hoodat]

Your basis? Why is one from Godly power while the other is not? And if Matthew 7 is 'ungodly', then where does that power come from? You can't redefine it after the fact to fit into your belief system. You have to accept it as is. And it is clear that those people in Matthew 7 were doing the exact same thing as those in Luke 9. Both were casting out demons in Jesus name, based solely upon the authority and power that came through Jesus. Never mind the state of salvation for those in Matthew 7. Their state has nothing at all to do with the source of their power.

What Jesus was trying to say here is that it does oneself no good in the long run to believe in the Power of Christ if one does not bother knowing Christ. From the beginning, it has always been about relationship. God is looking for a family. He gives freely to those who ask, but in the end, He is still looking for a family. Those in Matthew 7 asked for and were given the power of Christ. They even recognized Jesus as Lord, but they never put forth the effort to get to know Him.

[verga]

Words mean things, that is the problem. And it is not my problem, it the problem of those that are intellectually lazy and refuse to use precision when speaking, writing or communicating in general.

[metmom]

Excellent.

You are right about people’s (read Catholics especially) attitude towards sin.

It is the idea that we are good until we commit a sin, and then we confess it and we’re done. They do not understand that we are STEEPED in sin. That it permeates our being so that every thought, idea, emotion, is contaminated by it; that we have no *good works* to offer God that are not corrupted and defiled.

[xzins]

I already pointed out that the Matthew 7 passage was about false prophets, and that Matthew 24 itself acknowledges the power of false prophets, and their deceitfulness...wolves in sheep’s clothing.

So, all I have to do is use the bible to explain itself in this question you’ve posed.

The bible says that we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with dark powers and principalities.

So, if Satan can appear as an angel of light, and his minions can be deceitful and powerful, then we would simply be finding in the bible examples of those who’ve pretended to be on the Lord’s side, but have actually been powered otherwise.

Acts 4: 4 The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus. 5 When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the Jewish synagogues. John was with them as their helper. 6 They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7 who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10 “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun.” Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

[metmom]

What it gets down to is that salvation is not about church.

Or rather churchianity.

Salvation is about being reconciled with God, not about going to church or becoming religious.

If you’re not going to be saved, there is simply no point in going to church. It WOULD be a waste of time. You might as well just go out and enjoy life and sin all you want cause it’s going to be the best you’re going to get. Enjoy it while you can cause you’re going to have a long time to regret it and wish it was that good again.

[metmom]

Every time someone makes that claim of being able to commit any sin and still think they are saved it strikes me that that person has no idea what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is. If they had any concept of what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is they would understand that the Holy Spirit in essence becomes that person’s conscience. It would be worse than trying to view porn with their mother sitting beside them.

Anyone who thinks to make that accusation really needs to examine their relationship with Jesus and understand that a person who has truly been saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit wouldn’t even conceive of sinning without a guilty conscience and seeking forgiveness and change.

You are absolutely correct.

Long time ago, I actually was very strongly tempted to give in to the temptation to deal dishonestly in a business transaction, buying something and trying to pass it off as something else for less money.

Even considering it seriously was repulsive to me. I just could not actually go ahead and do it.