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To: Mad Dawg; Gamecock; Elsie; metmom; boatbums; CynicalBear; GarySpFc
I don’t understand anybody who swims the Tiber for reasons other than theological and ecclesiological, unless he had a vision or some such.

Roman doctrine and practice offers "order." Those that go to Evangelical/Baptist/Protestant churches that end up with Rome are seeking "order" and "tangible" religion.

Rome feeds the senses and gives concrete "stereo instructions" on how to be "righteous" before God. So people seeking order in their lives who do not have the Holy Spirit guiding them, go to something that they can "control" by DOING somethings. That is the allure.

Pastors probably see it coming but most don't. They are the veiled questions of "how do I know for sure I am saved?" I am sure pastors lead them to God's Word and if God's Word is not enough, they shop for a religion that gives them written instructions on what they can DO. At that point you put 'salvation' in your our hands (control, kind of like at the tower of Babel) and the hands of others who tell you that what you are doing is right because "God has his rep right here on earth" to confirm your beliefs...which are in yourself and not God.

54 posted on 11/19/2013 4:01:39 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter
Those that go to Evangelical/Baptist/Protestant churches that end up with Rome are seeking "order" and "tangible" religion.

That's the usual story that's given by the Evangelical side, but is almost never true. The real script follows one of three paths:

  1. People conclude that sola scriptura is wrong because of its obvious logical inconsistencies (if the NT is the regula fide of the church, what was the regula fide of the church the NT was written to, before it was written? ... if sola scriptura is true, why are there so many disparate understandings of what the scriptura means?)
  2. A few people conclude first that sola fide is wrong. They usually are heavyweight scripture scholars who read the Bible in Greek, and not as a hobby either.
  3. People read the church fathers, see nothing like Protestantism in them, and conclude that the only churches anything like what they read about are either Catholic or Orthodox.
This is based on actually knowing quite a few ex-Protestant Catholics personally, and reading about others.
66 posted on 11/19/2013 4:54:17 PM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: redleghunter
It's interesting;

— In my Dominican parish, the current pastor and his predecessor (now the prior of the Province) have both been very explicit about saying that a personal encounter with Christ is an essential “moment” in the Christian life.

— I am currently in a conversation on facebook about the way that Catholics too often use dogma and sacrament as shields to protect them from that personal encounter. I referred to Jeremiah's slam about “The Temple of the Lord.”

— And, of course, it bears repeating that the old joke is,”I don't believe in organized religion, I'm a Catholic.”

My Tiber swimming was certainly influenced not so much by “order” as by a rational account of “authority.” As an Episcopalian clergyman I saw I group which turned away from every concept of “apostolic” authority that might turn out to be inconvenient. And while I thought that being ordained necessarily implied an approach to daily life that involved living “to Godward,” as somebody once said, I found that I was alone in that thought.

I know there are other pastors and lay folk in Protestant denominations who lead very holy lives. But that is also true of SOME Catholics. I do NOT get order. I have dealt with/worked with Catholic ordained folks who were, well, not “docile to the Magisterium” as we say.

But I found that in my daily life, which involves prayerful interaction with Scripture, and in my studies I was encountering a clear, though often ignored,unfolding of the Gospel.

Yeah, I know we can argue about whether I was mistaken in that. But the point you raise is about the longing for order, and it's that point I am responding to.

“All the [Catholic] things” can be a snare, an illusion,a distraction,even an idol. But not all of us, by God's delivering grace, fall into that distraction or idolatry.

79 posted on 11/19/2013 5:13:48 PM PST by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: redleghunter

I agree. I think another aspect is that humans have a tendency to allow someone else to “make the decisions” and to “take the responsibility”. It’s the old “don’t blame me” strategy to avoid personal responsibility.


87 posted on 11/19/2013 5:37:16 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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