Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
Interesting you should post this (rather than one of your two images) in response to an article that teaches true faith is an obedient faith, which RCs imagine characterizes their church.
So you believe (to be consistent) that those who do not believe in transubstantiation have no spiritual life in them, but are as Judas?
Yet being consistent with John and the rest of Scripture, spiritual life was never gained by physically eating, and thus eating here is consistent with John who teaches believing the gospel is how souls obtained life in them, and they lived by Jesus by doing His will as it is written, (Mt. 4:4) as Jesus lived by the Father by doing His, which was His "bread." (Jn. 4:34; 6:47)
This is correct, as "were are sure the judgment of God is according to Truth." (Rm. 3:2) As seen in the Lord's condemnation of cities which were given more grace, faith must have evidence, but this is relative to light and grace given.
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (Matthew 11:21)
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:47-48)
Could you show the scripture that shows that?
>>This side of the Cross it is always the shed Blood of Christ.<<
Actually it’s always been that. The Old Testament was looking forward. But you need to keep in mind that during the tribulation there will once again be a Temple and sacrifice as it was in the Old Testament. Can you explain that in the “under grace” sense?
Not really. In the Old Testament the Israelites did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we do today. That indwelling didn’t happen until after Christ ascended. The Holy Spirit did speak to them. Remember that God is dealing with the Israelites during that seven year period just as He did prior to Christ’s death, resurrection and ascension. It can’t be grace and law.
Do we know why he took that “vow”. The Greek word used their means “a prayer comprising a vow”. I haven’t ever seen the reasoning he gave behind that “shaving”. Where does it say that it was because of Jewish law? Or was it simply to be able to relate to Jews rather than a requirement? And if a requirement is that also for us today?
>>then so is Paul, who taught "not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13)<<
Um, there is something that doesn’t fit there. I think reading that in the context of the rest of the chapter would cause one to understand that Peter was talking about if you are under the law you have to keep all the law and that to the letter. Later in that chapter he indicates that the Jews by their demanding strict adherence to the law while not being able to keep it blaspheme God. “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you”. Then there is an obvious contradiction when Paul says this.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
It can’t be both ways. Something had to have changed along the way.
Romans 2 is talking about the futility of following the law to the letter. We can’t just stop with that chapter since he continues the conversation in the next chapter where he says “20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” Did he contradict himself? I think not.
That nailed it! Well put!
Except that Paul also said that the “mystery” had been given to him that had not been known before. It was revealed by the Holy Spirit
Ephesians 1:1-5 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
If it had been a mystery until the Holy Spirit revealed it to them it had to have been still a “mystery” throughout Christ’s life on earth and until the apostles were given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Something changed at that point. That’s when grace took center stage.
That’s because there are NOT two different gospels. The difference is how God deals with the people in each dispensation. Even the apostles wouldn’t have known what the “mystery” was until after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Prior to Pentecost they were still understood only the external laws.
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Paul preached the gospel/good news of grace which prior had been a mystery.
Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Faith exhibited by works? What was the “gospel of grace” which Paul said had been a “mystery” until after Pentecost? That gospel could not have been preached prior.
That is commonly taught, but incorrect except in the general sense that that the Holy Spirit was not poured out upon all believers.
Remember that God is dealing with the Israelites during that seven year period just as He did prior to Christ’s death, resurrection and ascension. i see that is speculation at best, as the existence of the temple and sacrifices in the Trib can be seen as a restoration of Judaism, but not as a means of salvation, but instead the Lord shall manifest them as being void, as they must and will look upon the Lord Jesus for salvation by faith, as they always must.
For after the fulness of the Gentiles is entered in, God will reverse the general curse of blindness (as seen in Rm. 11 ) and
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. (2 Corinthians 3:14-16)
The last indication i see of souls being saved in the Trib. before the end is,
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (Revelation 11:13)
After that all i see impenitence till the end when God grants repentance to Israel, that is the remnant of what is left .
And then with the devil bound (no Sammy Davis excuse) God will test them as a nation in the millennium, in which both Israel and other nations will be under the theocracy of Christ, who rules with a rod of iron while gently leading his flock with you, the with its Temple and sacrifices Ezekiel describes, which themselves are not expiatory, but could be like the Lord's Supper today.
The NT saints will make up the government under their King Jesus, and the last test will be the devil being loosed to tempt whoever can be seduced into rebellion. Which get toasted and then the saints enter the Heavenly City for eternity. (Rv. 19-22) Thanks be to God for so great salvation at so great a cost, by the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ!
“It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
What does Paul mean by this? 1. The GRACE OF GOD WAS GIVEN TO HIM, BY GOD. 2. He (Paul) has laid the foundation of THE GRACE OF GOD. 3. But take heed how another builds on this foundation. 4. The foundation is Jesus Christ.
IOW: Jesus Christ is the foundation of the grace of God. Just as Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Law and the Prophets. The foundation of the grace of God is what the Church the Body of Christ IS. The foundation of the Law and the Prophets is what the Kingdom IS. Peter and the 11 built on this foundation as they preached the Kingdom message (The Great Commission). BOTH are built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. BUT they are DIFFERENT. One is for a KINGDOM of BELIEVERS. The other is for a BODY OF BELIEVERS. Which is what Jesus gave Paul, through direct revelations to give to the world...GRACE...the gospel of the GRACE OF GOD. Paul did not say that the foundation he laid was given to Peter, the 11, and Paul. He does NOT say that God gave this Grace of God to Peter, the 11, and himself. He says they are built on the same foundation, that being, Jesus Christ. This is why Matthew, Mark, Luke and John seem to never quite fit perfectly with Rom. through Philemon(water baptism for the remission of sins, "I am NOT sent but to the lost sheep of Israel", the day of Pentecost, etc.). The foundation is the same (Jesus Christ and His two-fold ministry), but the message is to different people, with different good news. A kingdom of believers and a body of believers.
Pleas show the Old Testament scripture that shows the Holy Spirit dwelling within those OT believers as opposed to just speaking to them.
>> i see that is speculation at best, as the existence of the temple and sacrifices in the Trib can be seen as a restoration of Judaism, but not as a means of salvation, but instead the Lord shall manifest them as being void, as they must and will look upon the Lord Jesus for salvation by faith, as they always must.<<
The Temple is to be rebuilt per the instructions of God. All sacrifices are to be resumed as it is the continuation of the 490 years prophesied by Daniel.
>> The last indication i see of souls being saved in the Trib. before the end is,<<
Whoa there. Revelation 11:13 says they “give glory to God” just as they had done in the Old Testament. It does not say they recognized Jesus as the Messiah at that point. The “remnant” at the point has simply been “set apart”.
That is commonly taught, but incorrect except in the general sense that that the Holy Spirit was not poured out upon all believers.
TRUE, but while the 'outpouring' of Pentecost is a significant event, I would strengthen the emphasis of your statement: The Ruach Ha'Kodesh was not unknown prior to Pentecost. As a simple example, one cannot read the Psalms without a sure knowledge that David was Born Again. His intimate knowledge of the indwelling Spirit can only come from experience. He knew.
What is significant in the message of Pentecost is not the indwelling per se, but rather, what that indwelling permitted: The focus on the internal Temple - One often fails to see the Spring Feasts as a block of events, but the initiation at Passover is culminated in Pentecost... The fulfillment of the whole series is what creates the provision for the internal Temple in each Man... That is not to say that the internal Temple has not always been (because i think, it has always been the point), but that the potential thereof is finally realized in Messiah.
The last indication i see of souls being saved in the Trib. before the end is,
While it is ALWAYS dangerous to predict prophecy, I would submit that there is much more evidence than that - There are survivors who come through the tribulation out of all the nations... If it is true that Yeshua has conquered, and all His enemies are dust under His feet, then those surviving must be inferred to be at least 'not' his enemies... And the trees along the Jordan are for the 'healing of the nations' - One assumes those in Messiah are already healed perfectly, so what then is the need for this other thing, unless there are others? That those in Messiah are priests and kings, and will rule with him, suggests others - what is a priest except one who intercedes, and what is a king except one who reigns? Both infer 'others' which require ministrations.
Furthermore, there are generations in the millennium - suggesting births - Now, I am not one who believes that there are no more births to those in Messiah, but standard Christian belief would only allow those generations birthed to someone else, ergo, others...
After that all i see impenitence till the end when God grants repentance to Israel, that is the remnant of what is left .
I would submit that your statement is the residue of replacement theology - That Messiah would let Jerusalem (which he has carved on His Hands) go through the wrath of YHWH is simply an unconscionable position, which should be corrected. I think the very thing that causes the Jews to build the 3rd Temple will be the very same event which causes their conversion, and sends forth the 1440000 of each tribe... My bet is on the Magog war, but it is hard telling till it happens. The remnant left in Israel after the rapture will be like the remnant left everywhere at that time - unbelievers who will come to belief (and probably die) during the wrath portion.
[...](no Sammy Davis excuse)[....]
Ha! Don't look now, but you are dating yourself... ; )
And then with the devil bound (no Sammy Davis excuse) God will test them as a nation in the millennium, in which both Israel and other nations will be under the theocracy of Christ, who rules with a rod of iron while gently leading his flock with you, the with its Temple and sacrifices Ezekiel describes, which themselves are not expiatory, but could be like the Lord's Supper today.
Ezekiel's Temple is a study, isn't it? Judaism admits it's very function is different from the functions and sacrifices of Temple Judaism, yet it represents a conundrum to Christendom, because it blatantly predicts sacrifices... blood sacrifices even, which seems to be just alright with the Prince, who inhabits the Temple and takes His breakfast in the East Gate thereof. That riddle, which neither the Jew nor the Christian can swallow, might be a pointer in and of itself...
And in passing, it is important to note that the 'rod of iron' suggests 'justice' in the Hebrew sense... quite different than the 'force' suggested by the term in the nations that surround her.
Prophecy is not conclusive the Temple sacrifice will be directed by God or the anti-christ. Remember it is possible even the Jews who rebuild the Temple may be deceived and think the anti-christ is the Christ. What we know from Daniel and Jesus' own prophecies is there will be a third temple and the desolation will occur.
We also know from Revelation that there will be martrys for Christ and they are called 'saints' as well.
First from Revelation 6:
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Then here in Revelation 13:
7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
So we know there will be believers 'saints' and they are called our brothers and sisters. If we look at Revelation 11 on the two witnesses it says they will give "testimony." Testimony to what? Temple Mosaic Law worship or the tesimony given by the apostles in the NT of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
We then see in Revelation 9 many will NOT repent and continue loving their sin and the world:
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
What are they not accepting here? Are they rejecting temple worship to God or God's plan of salvation through faith in trust in the shed Blood of Christ. We see the saints and eventually the two witnesses are murdered for giving testimony. What testimony is it? The temple worship or the shed Blood of Christ. Given the large amount of OT and NT evidence that message or testimony will be the same one proclaimed at Pentecost, to Cornelius, and in all the epistles.
Yes I do agree left or right on the timeline of the Cross it has always been about deliverance through the Son of God. We know this today because we are on this side of the Cross and Empty Tomb.
Are you implying there will no Gentiles saved during the tribulation and only Hebrews? I understand the focus is on Israel, the Hebrews all 12 tribes, but that redemption as a people does not come until Christ returns.
There is no contradiction at all. It is explained in Chapter 3 of Romans:
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
He used "apostles" plural.
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