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U.S. to Downscale Vatican Embassy, Raising Concern Among Catholics—Including Five Former Ambassadors
Patheos ^ | 11/23/13 | Kathy Schiffer

Posted on 11/24/2013 2:21:20 PM PST by marshmallow

The United States is scaling back its diplomatic mission at the Vatican—making plans to close its Vatican Embassy headquarters, and instead conduct its operations in a smaller building within the walls of the U.S. Embassy to Italy.

The Obama Administration cites “security concerns” following the attack in Benghazi, and claims that they can better protect embassy staff in a consolidated compound. According to government authorities, once construction is completed in 2015, the Vatican Embassy will have a separate entrance and it will be apparent that it is a completely separate operation.

But many Catholics—among them five former U.S. Ambassadors to the Holy See—strongly disagree, calling the plan a “massive downgrade” in U.S./Vatican relations.

Former U.S. Ambassador James Nicholson, who served as Secretary of Veterans Affairs under George W. Bush and as chairman of the Republican National Committee, said, “It’s turning this embassy into a stepchild of the embassy to Italy.” Speaking to National Catholic Reporter’s John Allen, Ambassador Nicholson said:

“The Holy See is a pivot point for international affairs and a major listening post for the United States, and to shoehorn [the U.S. delegation] into an office annex inside another embassy is an insult to American Catholics and to the Vatican.”

(Excerpt) Read more at patheos.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Politics
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1 posted on 11/24/2013 2:21:20 PM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
The Obama Administration cites “security concerns”

Inside Vatican City?

2 posted on 11/24/2013 2:24:06 PM PST by HangnJudge
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To: marshmallow

I’d rater give the U.S. fewer opportunities to bug the Vatican.


3 posted on 11/24/2013 2:25:32 PM PST by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
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To: marshmallow
to shoehorn [the U.S. delegation] into an office annex inside another embassy is an insult to American Catholics and to the Vatican.

Perhaps that's the objective.

4 posted on 11/24/2013 2:25:35 PM PST by fso301
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To: marshmallow

Makes sense actually


5 posted on 11/24/2013 2:25:46 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: marshmallow

Is it critical to have an embassy at the vatican? Probably not.

Does it even make sense to consider a religion also a diplomatic state? probably not. nation-states are more of a worldly construct, the church is not.

On the other hand,

it’s a clear message from our first muslim illegal resident.

that this move is done under him, it’s par for the course, for the first bogeyer.


6 posted on 11/24/2013 2:26:07 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: marshmallow

I would have thought that there were fewer terrorist bombers in the Vatican than there are in Benghazi.

Hey! I have an idea. As long as they’re consolidating, why don’t they consolidate all the U.S. embassies in Africa into one building somewhere in central Africa? Think of the money they’d save!

Or would that possibly be . . . politically incorrect?


7 posted on 11/24/2013 2:26:13 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: HangnJudge

Yeah, you know, those crazy, right wingnut Catholics who cling to their guns and religion.

This kind of stuff is the only aspect of his regime that is transparent.


8 posted on 11/24/2013 2:26:43 PM PST by DPMD
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...

Catholic ping!


9 posted on 11/24/2013 2:27:57 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: Secret Agent Man

“Does it even make sense to consider a religion also a diplomatic state?”

The Vatican is a state by its own proclamation, not by ours, and they certainly have that right. Any nation calling itself an “islamic republic” is essentially doing the same thing.


10 posted on 11/24/2013 2:28:43 PM PST by DPMD
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To: HangnJudge

My daughter just said, “What are they afraid of? The guards who look like they work for Hot Dog On A Stick are really gonna attack the Embassy?”


11 posted on 11/24/2013 2:29:44 PM PST by married21 ( As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: marshmallow

Maybe President fear that his head be spinning around like Exorcist like Pea soup


12 posted on 11/24/2013 2:30:52 PM PST by SevenofNine (We are Freepers, all your media bases belong to us ,resistance is futile)
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To: HangnJudge
Inside Vatican City?

Of course. The men of Vatican City have fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and fanatical devotion to the Pope.

13 posted on 11/24/2013 2:31:44 PM PST by MuttTheHoople (Nothing is more savage and brutal than justifiably angry Americans. DonÂ’t believe me? Ask the Germa)
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To: marshmallow

Gotta make room for that Caliphate Embassy.


14 posted on 11/24/2013 2:31:47 PM PST by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: DPMD

But it doesn’t make sense over here.

It’s not like bishops and archbishops and cardinals can break the law here and claim diplomatic immunity. cardinals and archbishops are regarded as ambassador-type diplomats, but they can be arrested.

SO they’re a nation but their diplomats (high officials) aren’t afforded diplomatic immunity. are they diplomats or aren’t they?

muslim clerics here don’t have diplomatic immunity either.


15 posted on 11/24/2013 2:33:31 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: marshmallow; a fool in paradise
It'll be moved to Mecca, that's obvious!


16 posted on 11/24/2013 2:33:58 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: married21

those are just looks, those guards havemodern weapons and very good lethal training.


17 posted on 11/24/2013 2:34:40 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: HangnJudge

How long ago were the Benghazi attacks?

This makes no sense, but then so does this president..........How long before our long national nightmare will end?


18 posted on 11/24/2013 2:36:50 PM PST by basil (2ASisters.org)
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To: NYer; zot

Dare I say that the administration’s view is “Catholics? We don’t need no *)*&*() pro-life Catholics who listen to the Pope and actually practice their faith. We only need those who are Catholic in name only and have traded in all their beliefs for a superior belief in secular humanism and communism.” Besides, we will move the staff to our new embassy in Mecca.


19 posted on 11/24/2013 2:38:47 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: basil
.How long before our long national nightmare will end?

Until The Lord Returns
Evil will always be with us...

20 posted on 11/24/2013 2:41:34 PM PST by HangnJudge
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To: Secret Agent Man

The Vatican is a city/state. It has embassies.


21 posted on 11/24/2013 2:41:37 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Secret Agent Man

True, but they’re not likely to attack the US embassy with their modern gear, either. The Vatican just simply isn’t a dangerous place on the level with Benghazi.


22 posted on 11/24/2013 2:41:43 PM PST by married21 ( As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: marshmallow

The Christian European West barely escaped destruction at the hands of the Moslems. At one point they were stopped near Tours and at another point, later on in time, outside the gates of Vienna. The Church throughout northern Africa was practically destroyed by Moslem power, and at the present hour, the Moslems are beginning to rise again.

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, Mary and the Moslems, Chapter 17 of The World’s First Love, 1953

Used to open CH 1 of Babylon’s Covert War - Amazon Book Store


23 posted on 11/24/2013 2:47:36 PM PST by BCW (Salva reipublicae)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Right on.

Muslims, especially jihadists hate Catholics.


24 posted on 11/24/2013 2:48:35 PM PST by old curmudgeon
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To: marshmallow

OK. Let’s review.

Zero and 0bamunists have left the Israelis swinging in the wind; even to the point of aiding and abetting an avowed enemy of Israel (Iran).
Zero and 0bamunists have trampled on the Christian faith in venues as far flung as Iraq and Afghanistan, and as close as Main Street, USA.

So...why would we expect otherwise for the Catholics?

Simple fact is that Zero still finds the muslim call to prayer to be the most beautiful sound on earth.

‘Nuff said.


25 posted on 11/24/2013 2:49:03 PM PST by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion. 01-20-2016; I pray we make it that long.)
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To: GreyFriar

Wise post, thank you.


26 posted on 11/24/2013 2:52:11 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow

I was always under the impression the importance of the Vatican in international affairs is because it has clergy/laity in practically every country in the world, hostile or not, and information does flow to the Vatican, hence, intelligence. I would think after the fall of Eastern Europe from communist control, partly credited to the influence of John Paul II, would’ve made the argument for a continued embassy placement their crucial for the survival of Judeo-Christian Western Civilization...unless you don’t want that to survive, eh Barack?


27 posted on 11/24/2013 2:52:29 PM PST by john drake
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To: HangnJudge

Yeah ... you know those crazy Catholics ... Always rioting and stuff during Lent and Advent.


28 posted on 11/24/2013 2:53:42 PM PST by NorthMountain
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To: DPMD
>> That means officialdom wants to outlaw the practice but doesn’t have the votes to do it, so they will harass you against the public will.

Went to my local gun shop yesterday ... the Knights of Columbus had a guy out front selling raffle tickets. At stake: a Remington in .270, a Ruger 10-22 and something else.

You're darn right I bought a few tickets.

29 posted on 11/24/2013 2:56:38 PM PST by NorthMountain
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To: HangnJudge

Yes—but does he have to be the POTUS?


30 posted on 11/24/2013 2:59:07 PM PST by basil (2ASisters.org)
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To: DPMD
>> Yeah, you know, those crazy, right wingnut Catholics who cling to their guns and religion.

Went to my local gun shop yesterday ... the Knights of Columbus had a guy out front selling raffle tickets. At stake: a Remington in .270, a Ruger 10-22 and something else.

You're darn right I bought a few tickets.

31 posted on 11/24/2013 3:00:08 PM PST by NorthMountain
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To: marshmallow

America will officially put it’s show of reverence to the catholic church on hold for now. Not a big shock, considering what is now acting as our president. This and other details (Winston Churchill’s Bust)can be promptly reversed after the O hits the door. My faith is not at all affected.


32 posted on 11/24/2013 3:00:28 PM PST by lee martell
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To: GreyFriar

Bingo!


33 posted on 11/24/2013 3:06:15 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: HangnJudge

The Vatican is known to have both major stockpiles of Holy Water and a huge capacity for its production. Protecting the U.S. government and personnel from its effects is a major concern for this administration.


34 posted on 11/24/2013 3:09:38 PM PST by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: DPMD

Actually, the Vatican is not sovereign by its own proclamation: in 756 Pepin the Short, who was sovereign over (among other things) the portion of the Italian peninsula that included Rome granted Pope Stephen I sovereignty over Rome and its environs, a grant that was confirmed by Pepin’s son Charlegmagne in 774. The size of the Papal States have ebbed and flowed since then, but the sovereignty is by grant, not by self-proclamation. Very few states have such ancient roots.


35 posted on 11/24/2013 3:15:57 PM PST by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: Secret Agent Man

Not every Catholic, or even every cleric, is a citizen of the Vatican—very few are. Conversely, if one were born in the Vatican, one could (at least potentially—I’m not sure what the rules are on citizenship) be a Vatican citizen without being a Catholic.


36 posted on 11/24/2013 3:18:40 PM PST by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: Nachum

Ping


37 posted on 11/24/2013 3:19:18 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
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To: married21
I think you'll find that after, oh the 1980's or so, when a muslim tried to kill the pope by shooting him the vatican takes security very seriously. On a par with the US secret service.

CC

38 posted on 11/24/2013 3:21:24 PM PST by Celtic Conservative (tease not the dragon for thou art crunchy when roasted and taste good with ketchup)
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To: fso301

“to shoehorn [the U.S. delegation] into an office annex inside another embassy is an insult to American Catholics and to the Vatican.
Perhaps that’s the objective.”

Bingo. Barack Insane Obama hates the church. For those who think “no big deal” it’s important to remember how much the Vatican was used by RR to free eastern Europe from the yoke of communism. This same channel could be used to help Christian churches under attack by radical Islam world wide, but Obama doesn’t want to be bothered, because he thinks “the Muslim call to prayer is the prettiest sound in the world.” Here is an excellent article from time re: Vatican/Reagan/Solidarity movement and the instrumental part it played in bringing down the Soviet Union. http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,159069,00.html


39 posted on 11/24/2013 3:31:12 PM PST by gemoftheocean (...geez, this all seems so straight forward and logical to me...)
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To: Secret Agent Man

The Vatican is quite a unique city-state. Let’s not forget it’s been around for 2000 years and packs more diplomatic punch than its 109 acres would indicate. May I remind you of the instrumental role it played in helping RR bring about the fall of the Soviet union, by Reagan’s use of Vatican intelligence to funnel money to Solidarity to the right places and people. http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,159069,00.html


40 posted on 11/24/2013 3:35:42 PM PST by gemoftheocean (...geez, this all seems so straight forward and logical to me...)
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To: marshmallow

Another slap in the face to Catholics by the Obama administration.


41 posted on 11/24/2013 3:55:44 PM PST by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: HangnJudge
That was my question, within the Vatican?

Granted America is a target around the world, but I don't see this as being Benghazi.

42 posted on 11/24/2013 3:57:56 PM PST by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God Bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Secret Agent Man
For a member of the Vatican Embassy to receive diplomatic immunity, he (assuming no shes here), must be on the Diplomatic List. He is issued a diplomatic carnet by the host foreign ministry or state department and is carried by the diplomat so he doesn't have to carry his diplomatic passport with him.

When Noriega was holed up in the Vatican Legation in Panama in 1990. He was safe as long as the embassy shield was displayed. When the Diplomatic staff left, they took the shield, and Noriega's protection with it. When they left, the Vatican Legation was just another building,and the U.S. Army could waltz in and detain Ol' Pineapple Face.

I was stationed at the U.S. embassy in Rome 1976-1979. At that time, the U.S. Embassy to the Vatican was a single office, right across the hallway from mine. I never once saw the Ambassador, a member of the Lodge family IIRC. About the time I left, the U.S. Embassy officially opened in the Vatican itself.

43 posted on 11/24/2013 4:01:30 PM PST by Ax
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To: Jet Jaguar; NorwegianViking; ExTexasRedhead; HollyB; FromLori; EricTheRed_VocalMinority; ...

The list, Ping

Let me know if you would like to be on or off the ping list

http://www.nachumlist.com/


44 posted on 11/24/2013 4:07:38 PM PST by Nachum (Obamacare: It's. The. Flaw.)
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To: marshmallow

How ironic. Haven’t several Catholic institutions recently won court cases regarding obamacare?


45 posted on 11/24/2013 4:13:14 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: marshmallow

It makes no sense to have an American “embassy” to the Roman Catholic Church, unless the U.S. is going to have an “embassy” to whatever HQ there is to any other major religious denomination.


46 posted on 11/24/2013 4:41:04 PM PST by Wuli
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To: marshmallow

>>>...the Vatican Embassy will have a separate entrance and it will be apparent that it is a completely separate operation.>>>

It will still be part of the overall building. I hope the Catholic church is hiring many experts to clear the walls of all bugging devices.


47 posted on 11/24/2013 4:57:26 PM PST by kitkat (STORM THE HEAVENS WITH PRAYERS FOR OUR COUNTRY.)
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To: marshmallow

Just to be clear, our Holy See embassy is actually outside the Vatican, across the river near the Circus Maximus. Our Italian embassy is a little bit north of them, up toward the Villa Borghese. That said, they’ve apparently managed separated that way for the last twenty or thirty years, and whatever the Italians and we are doing for security has worked. And the problem with Benghazi wasn’t so much that Stevens and them were away from the embassy in Tripoli as that their security got breached and then the guys up the chain left them hanging. That’s what needs to be fixed more than bringing our Holy See post into Fort Apache, Via Veneto. Because if that’s not fixed, those poor suckers can get screwed just as easily in Fort Apache as where they are now.


48 posted on 11/24/2013 5:03:10 PM PST by RichInOC (2013-14 Tiber Swim Team)
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To: Ax

interesting stuff, thanks!


49 posted on 11/24/2013 5:05:49 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: Salvation

well aware of this.


50 posted on 11/24/2013 5:08:31 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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