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Race and the Priesthood [Lds Church attempts to explain its past racist prophets and policies]
Lds Church ^ | Dec. 9, 2013

Posted on 12/10/2013 5:21:52 AM PST by Colofornian

...Latter-day Saint scripture and teachings affirm that God loves all of His children and makes salvation available to all. God created the many diverse races and ethnicities and esteems them all equally...

...for much of its history—from the mid-1800s until 1978—the Church did not ordain men of black African descent to its priesthood or allow black men or women to participate in temple endowment or sealing ordinances.

SNIP

In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood, though thereafter blacks continued to join the Church through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Following the death of Brigham Young, subsequent Church presidents restricted blacks from receiving the temple endowment or being married in the temple. Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions...

The curse of Cain was often put forward as justification for the priesthood and temple restrictions. Around the turn of the century, another explanation gained currency: blacks were said to have been less than fully valiant in the premortal battle against Lucifer and, as a consequence, were restricted from priesthood and temple blessings.13

SNIP

Resources

13. Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, for example, wrote in 1907 that the belief was “quite general” among Mormons that “the Negro race has been cursed for taking a neutral position in that great contest.” Yet this belief, he admitted, “is not the official position of the Church, [and is] merely the opinion of men.” Joseph Fielding Smith to Alfred M. Nelson, Jan. 31, 1907, Church History Library, Salt Lake City.

(Excerpt) Read more at lds.org ...


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; blacks; inman; lds; ldschurch; mormonism; racism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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From the statement released by the Mormon Church Friday: In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood...

So when is Brigham Young University's name going to be changed? Why honor an open racist?

The article makes minute footnoted reference of an "apostle-turned-prophet" -- Joseph Fielding Smith, who was the great nephew of Joseph Smith -- holding opinionated racist beliefs and openly propagating them in his writings. (Certainly this is progress because previously the Mormon Church would never point exact fingers at exactly what they were supposedly repudiating!)

Yet the Mormon Church seeks to reinvent history when they present these words as being received "back in the day" as "merely the opinion of men" (they weren't). These Mormon prophets' words were deemed the "final word." So they simply weren't received by Mormons as "opinions" from some bureaucratic hierarchist or from some preacher pounding some pulpit. They were billed as "God's Word" on the subject -- THE ONLY SOURCE of God's Word.

Hence, the Internet has served to chase away many Mormons once they discover their leaders' history...Once they see for themselves what these 11 "prophets" and their general authorities proclaimed as God's view on the matter -- and as being the ONLY OFFICIAL divine vocal chords on the face of the earth!

For example, see Brigham Young's message here:

Journal of Discourses: Volume 7, pp. 282-291: Intelligence, Etc.:

Brigham Young speaking as God's supposed ONLY "prophet" on earth in October 1859:

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of anyone of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race—that they should be the 'servant of servants;' and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then  the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion." (Brigham Young)

So Mormons...again...when will BYU undergo a complete "rebranding" by ridding its name forever of this "Racist-in-chief?"

1 posted on 12/10/2013 5:21:52 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From the statement:

....for much of its history—from the mid-1800s until 1978—the Church did not ordain men of black African descent to its priesthood or allow black men or women to participate in temple endowment or sealing ordinances...In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood...

Here Mitt Romney was, at age 30, belonging to such an organization...and somehow the GoP thought that younger voters in particular might look the other way.

Complete nonsense!

A word of explanation about the statement:

...did not ordain men of black African descent to its priesthood...

...the Mormon "ordination" process is simply laying hands on a 12-year-boy and praying over them...that's the extent of their ordination process for the "Aaronic priesthood." And then ALL Mormon men are to move on into the "Melchizedek" priesthood in basically the same manner.

The Mormon priesthood is not "clergy."

The Mormon priesthood is not the equivalent of "Catholic priesthood."

So, what the Mormon church is saying is: "Yeah, we denied blacks privileges to what any 12-year-old white boy had. And we were still doing this in 1978."

2 posted on 12/10/2013 5:28:45 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
Why December 9? Why would the Mormon church choose to release this statement now?

Well, Nelson Mandela spent all Summer in a hospital with a reoccurring lung infection; and then was back in the hospital by Nov. 13. His health has been continually in decline this year.

And this was regularly conveyed in the media.

I believe the PR folks @ Salt Lake City realized that one day soon Mandela would pass away. And so they drafted and redrafted and redrafted and redrafted and redrafted a very fine-tuned "crafted" message that would toss their own historical guilt right alongside the white guilt of South Africa. They were simply waiting for Mandela to die.

That way, in coming out of the racist closet, they wouldn't have to "be alone." They wouldn't be bare naked. They could "atone" for their corporate sin without somebody doing it bloodily...

Besides...people are quite busy in December...pre-occupied with other things...it's the "Friday afternoon" of the 12-month calendar.

3 posted on 12/10/2013 5:46:37 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian; All
Here's one Mormon blog by Gina Colvin commenting on the Mandela timing of this statement:
Mormons, Mandela, and the Race and Priesthood Statement:

Colvin's blog excerpt:

Call me cynical but the timing of the Race and the Priesthood statement from the LDS Newsroom; the PR department; the First Presidency, or wherever it came from appears to be an effort, in light of Mandela’s death, to mitigate for the church being positioned on the bad side history. Or perhaps it’s just a coincidence. Either way, as a church we have no right to effuse over Mandela’s Long Walk to Freedom...

Cont'd: His greatest work was as a political subversive and in his challenge to the racial, political and economic order of things, the very things our church has historically excommunicated for – calling it ‘apostasy’. So we don’t get to join hands with the rest of the world in celebrating a figure who would have been deprived of influence, priesthood, and even membership had he been a Mormon. And notwithstanding the long awaited honesty of the Race and the Priesthood statement, we are not yet that church that was once racist, and is no longer. Yet more needs to be said and done.

Cont'd:

Firstly, an apology is in order. The lives of faithful people both black and white were destroyed, upended, devastated by this doctrine. There are generations and generations of Black and Coloured folk who have had to wonder who they are in God’s eyes because church leaders sustained a discourse that blatantly positioned them as inferior. They need an apology.

Cont'd:

There were those who were excommunicated for their outspoken criticism of the church’s position on the divine order of mortal color – have they received an apology and a reinstatement– even posthumously? They deserve an apology. And there are white folk who have been lead astray be a vicious doctrine upheld by white men. White priesthood leaders who have not had to think about what their own race means in the order of Godly things and have apparently privileged their own credibility as inspired religious leaders above their need to put things right, and they have not put things right when they could have been put right – white folk deserve an apology for being lead to believe things that are simply not true.

And this admission has taken a long, long time, too long in fact – a wait that deserves an apology in and of itself.

Secondly, this is not something for the newsroom alone. This is not an incidental explanation that gets to sneak in quietly on a discrete webpage. The racial theories of the past were declared, understood and promulgated as doctrines and thus need to be officially repudiated in General Conference, as letters to be read by Bishoprics to their congregations, in addendum documents provided with curriculum materials. This statement should have come with an explanatory letter from the First Presidency, signed by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve and backed up with procedures for dealing with those who continue to teach and preach these spurious doctrines. There must be some protection for those who will continue to be affected by those who cling to these false doctrines, and feel justified in preaching them in church. Will those who refuse to part with their racist accounting of the order of heaven be treated as harshly as those who had in the past raised the voice of protest to those racist doctrines?

Thirdly...there are huge implications in this admission of wrong that now need to be tackled; 1) Those we had thought were talking to God, had in fact made a God of their culture, their politics, their privilege, their race. They were wrong. What else have they been wrong about?
2) Given that they were wrong and it has taken the Brethren this long to admit it, what do we accept now as doctrine that might be repudiated in a few years time?
3) Where are the curriculum lessons that address our need to deal with institutional and even prophetic error?

Bingo...

This Mormon blogger is starting to "get it."

4 posted on 12/10/2013 6:03:15 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
So, given that the Mormon church leadership has delegated this dirty process to its PR boys with anonymous statements...vs. addressing this openly from the top themselves

Who trumps who in the Mormon hierarchy? The PR Boys? Or "prophets" like Gordon B. Hinckley?

COMPASS INTERVIEW WITH PRESIDENT GORDON B. HINCKLEY: Aired: November 09, 1997:

Excerpt of that interview:

RB: Now up until 1978 I understand Blacks were not allowed to be priests in your Church?

GBH: That is correct. Although we have Black members of the Church. They felt that they would gain more in this Church than any other with which they were acquainted and they were members of the Church. In 1978 we (the president of the Church) received a revelation under which all worthy men would receive all the blessings of the Church available to them as well as to any others. So across the world now we are teaching the Gospel to Blacks, Whites, everyone else who will listen.

RB: So in retrospect WAS THE CHURCH WRONG IN THAT?

GBH: NO I DON'T THINK IT WAS WRONG. It things, various things happened in different periods. There’s a reason for them.

RB: WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR THAT?

GBH: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE REASON WAS. But I know that we’ve rectified whatever may have appeared to be wrong at that time.

***********************

So, as BGood Mormon poster on Ldsfreedomforum.com explained in citing the above:

Race and Priesthood: Church Disavows Past Theories:

"So whatever 'may have appeared to be wrong' has been changed but nothing was really wrong. Also Hinckley brings up that 'there's a reason' for past LDS racism but he doesn't know what the reason was."

And...apparently...now the Mormon Church knows what some -- but not the main reasons -- are...

Somehow, it wasn't their Lds "prophets" and "apostles" and General Authorities leading them astray, despite frequent assurances to the contrary.

5 posted on 12/10/2013 6:11:52 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Who gives a crap?


6 posted on 12/10/2013 6:14:50 AM PST by Altura Ct.
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To: Colofornian
 photo VAN_zps464445b7.jpg
7 posted on 12/10/2013 7:02:05 AM PST by baddog 219
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: laotzu

Only from lao will come remarks calling their own prophets words “bashing”


9 posted on 12/10/2013 7:07:13 AM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: teppe

Maybe, just maybe, one day instead of the ad hominem, libel and personal attacks, scales will drop from eyes and the deceived will one day see.

That they may one day see that exposing the deceitful teachings and doctrine of a false religion “led” by false “prophets” is not bigotry, smears, innuendo, distortion or fabrication, no matter how much one may wish it to be so.

The words, pages and utterings of their own “leaders” betray them, yet there is such a state of denial,as evidenced by the very words of this sect’s followers and their supporters, that it can only be explained by one thing; satan.

Praying for the people who display such characteristics that are in common with those deceived minions of a sect that persistently encourages deceit by its members.


11 posted on 12/10/2013 7:55:59 AM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Colofornian
GBH: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE REASON WAS. But I know that we’ve rectified whatever may have appeared to be wrong at that time.

Barak: the early years...

12 posted on 12/10/2013 8:06:33 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Altura Ct.
Who gives a crap?

You must; or else you would not have typed: "Who gives a crap?"

13 posted on 12/10/2013 8:07:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: laotzu
Religion bashing is a tradition on the left.

But it's FOUNDATIONAL in Mormonism...





Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

14 posted on 12/10/2013 8:08:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: teppe
Odd for someone claiming religious superiority to act so unchristian.

How can a DAMNED mormon worry about someone ELSE's religion??


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

15 posted on 12/10/2013 8:10:12 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SZonian
...The words, pages and utterings of their own “leaders” betray them...

Like the ABOVE???

16 posted on 12/10/2013 8:10:56 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Altura Ct.
Who gives a crap?

(I don't know...I'm not "into" tracking toilet deposits or such "contributions"...apparently, tho, that's uppermost on your mind, eh?)

17 posted on 12/10/2013 9:12:50 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: teppe
Tell us, Teppe...either you or your parents or both were giving $ to the Mormon church in its racist years, right?

Did you ever object to that?

Or did you just go along to get along?

18 posted on 12/10/2013 9:15:49 AM PST by Colofornian
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: Altura Ct.
Well a lot of Christians do since the LDS smears Jesus life and Mission...
20 posted on 12/10/2013 9:43:01 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: teppe

You need a new line...


21 posted on 12/10/2013 9:43:53 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: teppe

“As usual my favorite purveyor of religious bigotry, smears, innuendo, distortion, fabrication.”

OK, Teppe, for the hundredth time, please identify:

any bigotry
any smears
any innuendo
any distortion
any fabrication.

Frankly, you can’t show it. It isn’t there.

In contrast...

YOUR post is entirely bigotry, smears, innuendo, distortion and fabrication.

Got Freud?


22 posted on 12/10/2013 10:18:32 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: teppe

“As usual my favorite purveyor of religious bigotry, smears, innuendo, distortion, fabrication.”

OK, Teppe, for the hundredth time, please identify:

any bigotry
any smears
any innuendo
any distortion
any fabrication.

Frankly, you can’t show it. It isn’t there.

In contrast...

YOUR post is entirely bigotry, smears, innuendo, distortion and fabrication.

Got Freud?


23 posted on 12/10/2013 10:18:54 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; teppe

GREAT Double Post A More Perfect Union. Maybe that will encourage Teppe to come clean!


24 posted on 12/10/2013 10:20:06 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: laotzu

Projection is also a tool of Alinsky’s pupils and I see it in evidence by those who smear and libel others and refuse to engage in refuting the material presented.

Freeze the target, right? Attack the person, not the information, right?


25 posted on 12/10/2013 10:28:52 AM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: SZonian
When you throw in with Christian bashing Imams and
Progressives at a conservative site, you should be mocked.


26 posted on 12/10/2013 11:08:25 AM PST by laotzu
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To: All
In post #4, I cited this Mormon blogger as writing:

...there are huge implications in this admission of wrong that now need to be tackled; 1) Those we had thought were talking to God, had in fact made a God of their culture, their politics, their privilege, their race. They were wrong. What else have they been wrong about? 2) Given that they were wrong and it has taken the Brethren this long to admit it, what do we accept now as doctrine that might be repudiated in a few years time?

This hammer hits the nail square on its head.

Note this paragraph from yesterday's Salt Lake City Trib on this story:

"Mormons believe that their leaders are in regular communication with God, so if you say Young could make a serious error, he says, "it brings into question ALL of the prophet’s inspiration."

Source: Mormon church traces black priesthood ban to Brigham Young

EVERYTHING Brigham Young has uttered -- if it wasn's suspect enough with his teachings that...
...Adam is God...
...Blood atonement...
...etc...
...is FURTHER brought into disrepute and distrust.

Furthermore, it thereby brings EVERYTHING that a church body does that elevates the name "Brigham Young" (i.e. BYU) into the same level of disrepute and distrust!

27 posted on 12/10/2013 11:55:27 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All

28 posted on 12/10/2013 12:07:29 PM PST by laotzu
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To: All
For a history of Mormon leaders' quotes -- and "scriptures" still binding upon Mormons' beliefs -- see:

Recovery from Mormonism: Blacks and the Priesthood in the Mormon Church

29 posted on 12/10/2013 12:18:43 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: teppe

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


30 posted on 12/10/2013 12:33:33 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: laotzu

Islam sucks, I guess I’m on your list now.


31 posted on 12/10/2013 12:34:06 PM PST by ansel12 ( Ben Bradley-(JFK) told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: Utah Binger; All
Binger, you've said on a previous thread that you were a missionary in the Scandinavian countries -- not Norway -- about 1961...when this Lds "apostle" -- Alvin Rulon Dyer -- gave this racist talk to Lds missionaries at that time in Norway.

Content of the "talk" linked below.

Have you ever heard of this talk?

Alvin R. Dyer - For What Purpose

Dyer wasn't some low muckety-muck. Not only was he an "apostle" -- but he was one of the three highest-ranked hierarchists in the Mormon hierarchy from 1968-1970:

Source: Alvin R. Dyer

Why, after spewing such open racism in 1961, did Dyer advance into the upper echelon of the Mormon Church?

On the other hand, Joseph Fielding Smith also made a lot of racist statements...and he moved into the top "prophet" spot in 1970-1972.

Seems that just as John Taylor "dug in" defending polygamy in the 1880s, only to be replaced, so, too Mormondom had its protect-the-status-quo General Authorities at least 1968-1972.

32 posted on 12/10/2013 12:38:14 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: ansel12

My list?


33 posted on 12/10/2013 12:41:37 PM PST by laotzu
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To: ansel12; laotzu
Islam sucks, I guess I’m on your list now.

Yup. (We all know how laotzu tosses all his giraffe images on the thousands of threads where Islam is portrayed negatively...and accuses all those FR posters of "religion bashing"...)

Oh, wait.

I have that wrong.

Laotzu doesn't do that, does he?

Well...

...Never mind...

Well, ya know what they say: "Some religions are more equal than others."

(There. There's a quote you can add to your FREEPER home page, Laotzu)

34 posted on 12/10/2013 12:43:04 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

35 posted on 12/10/2013 12:56:22 PM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu

(Thanx...none of your “zoo-like” reviews would be complete without ‘em)


36 posted on 12/10/2013 1:04:14 PM PST by Colofornian
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: laotzu
I'm sorry that it's hard to discern that I've "thrown in" with the FI's. Been with them for some time, especially after they followed the advice of the mormons themselves in challenging my previous beliefs as a mormon. I appreciate their diligence.

It's funny that a handful of ex mormons and Christians generate such visceral responses from folks who deign to actually investigate what is being posted. They so predictably go straight to the liberal bible, Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

What I don’t understand about the mormons and their supporters complaining about us “confronting” you is that your own “prophets” and “apostles” issued the challenges. Dared any to challenge them on doctrine. Why then, aren’t the mormons of today accepting those challenges? Are the words of their “prophets” to be ignored?

Joseph Smith - "Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private" Doctrine and Covenants 71:7 (1831)

• Orson Pratt - "convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information" The Seer, p. 15 (1854)

• George A. Smith - "If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak." Journal of Discourses, vol. 14, p. 216 (1871)

• Brigham Young - "I have had many revelations; I have seen and heard for myself, and know these things are true, and nobody on earth can disprove them. ... I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test." Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 46 (1873)

• Brigham Young - "I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life. ... If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason." Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161 (1873)

• Wilford Woodruff - "I am willing to exchange all the errors and false notions I have for one truth, and should consider that I had made a good bargain. We are not afraid of light and truth. Our religion embraces every truth in heaven, earth or hell; it embraces all truth" Journal of Discourses, vol. 18, p. 117 (1875)

It appears so. So remember boys and girls, when a mormon or one of their enablers whines about being challenged, all you need to do is remember the words of their very own "prophets". But especially those of George Smith.

38 posted on 12/10/2013 1:26:09 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Colofornian

I think he also gave it in a mission conference in Copenhagen at about that same time. They brought the entire mission into Copenhagen for a 7:00 am meeting and sent us all out to a neighborhood out on Amager to gang up on an entire section of town and challenge every person we saw to be baptized that same day.

That guy was one hard ass. At the end of the day they made every one of us stand up and say why we did or didn’t succeed. I have never forgotten how he would challenge each missionary in an almost violent way. One guy broke down and Dyer called him a cry baby or something like that. A 19 year old kid.

Four of us rebellious guys traded off our companions that night and went downtown Copenhagen to the Giraffe Bar. Those were the days!


39 posted on 12/10/2013 1:27:11 PM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where the world comes to see America)
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To: laotzu

No defense on behalf of Islam?


40 posted on 12/10/2013 1:39:05 PM PST by ansel12 ( Ben Bradley-(JFK) told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: SZonian; ansel12
your own “prophets” and “apostles” issued the challenges

Who are my "prophets" and "apostles"?

What is "my list"?

41 posted on 12/10/2013 1:43:50 PM PST by laotzu
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To: ansel12
No defense of Islam.

What is "my list"?

42 posted on 12/10/2013 1:47:04 PM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu

You defend them, the doctrine and the teachings while attempting to “mock” others who accepted the mormon’s challenges. In my book, that makes you one of them, that’s all.

Now I think it’s time for some more giraffe pictures, don’t you?

Afterall, it appears that’s about all you are capable of posting in response and it repeatedly demonstrates an innate inability to post cogent responses.


43 posted on 12/10/2013 1:48:39 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: SZonian

Who are my “prophets” and “apostles”? Or, do you have an innate inability to answer cogent questions.


44 posted on 12/10/2013 1:59:23 PM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu

Why am I not surprised by your response...

But I am disappointed...no giraffe picture.

I was so looking forward to an inane reply.


45 posted on 12/10/2013 2:07:18 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: laotzu

Well, your list of religions that you want to defend which you made sound all inclusive, doesn’t seem to include the world’s second largest religion.

It seems that freepers at FR can criticize Islam without upsetting you.


46 posted on 12/10/2013 2:08:48 PM PST by ansel12 ( Ben Bradley-(JFK) told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: Utah Binger; laotzu; All
I think he also gave it in a mission conference in Copenhagen at about that same time. They brought the entire mission into Copenhagen for a 7:00 am meeting and sent us all out to a neighborhood out on Amager to gang up on an entire section of town and challenge every person we saw to be baptized that same day. Binger's comment on the Lds racist "apostle" who -- had there been a few deaths in '68-'early 70...could have become THE Mormon "prophet":

That guy was one hard ass. At the end of the day they made every one of us stand up and say why we did or didn’t succeed. I have never forgotten how he would challenge each missionary in an almost violent way. One guy broke down and Dyer called him a cry baby or something like that. A 19 year old kid. Four of us rebellious guys traded off our companions that night and went downtown Copenhagen to the Giraffe Bar. Those were the days!

Very interesting!

(Thanks for sharing, Binger!)

Four of us rebellious guys traded off our companions that night and went downtown Copenhagen to the GIRAFFE Bar.

Oh. So that explains Laotzu's constant giraffe images on Mormon threads.

Mormon missionaries -- and other Mormons on the sly -- will slip away now & then to a Giraffe Bar! (It's an encoded sub-cultural thing, eh, Laotzu?)

47 posted on 12/10/2013 2:12:33 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: SZonian

Who are my “prophets” and “apostles”?


48 posted on 12/10/2013 2:14:34 PM PST by laotzu
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To: ansel12
It seems that freepers at FR can criticize Islam without upsetting you.

They certainly can. Would it upset you?

49 posted on 12/10/2013 2:16:20 PM PST by laotzu
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To: Colofornian

No. It's a magic underwear thing.

50 posted on 12/10/2013 2:19:42 PM PST by laotzu
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