Posted on 12/15/2013 3:45:29 AM PST by GonzoII
Guest Jason Stellman, a former Presbyterian minister, tells Marcus what
convinced him that the Catholic Church is the true Church.
I don’t knock any church or denomination that teaches the solid truth of the Bible and the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. Organized religious church heirarchies are a bit of a turn off for me. The persecuted underground churches are the most admirable. The leftist, liberal tilt of some denominations I would avoid like the plague however.
Since this thread is starting more visual...
The Journey Home - Dec 9 - Jason Stellman - former Calvinist pastor
....as is so common with such things, [Stellman] fails to state accurately the position is supposed to be abandoning. He says, “I have begun to doubt whether the Bible alone can be said to be our only infallible authority for faith and practice.” But of course, that is not the formulation of sola Scriptura at all. Protestants hold that Scripture is the only “ultimate and infallible” authority for faith and practice. There are true spiritual authorities in this world that do not occupy the highest place, and the Northwest Presbytery of the PCA is one of them. But Stellman is showing by this action that he values his own personal thought processes over true ecclesiastical authority, rightly embraced........Stellman was unable to squeeze as much church authority as he personally wanted to have over him out of a godly ministerium, and so it looks as though he is hunting down a magisterium to suit him. He will, of course, do this as an individual, thinking his own thoughts about the Bible in his own head. The genius of the Roman system is its pragmatic syncretism, which allows folks to bring all kinds of things in with them, from South American animism to North American protestant individualism. This is why a lot of the Protestant converts to Rome didn’t really convert — they are as individualistic as ever, only now they get to play dress-ups.
-- from the thread A Decent Sandwich in New York [Doug Wilson on Jason Stellman's conversion from PCA to Catholic]I write this to make a plea with those who are still engaging Jason, listening to him, or considering following his path. Look at the real problem here. The radical nature of the paradigm shifts that have taken place in Jason's short life should say something. And the question of why Jason has to make every shift a public event with public attention should say even more. How much attention does Jason really need?....Jason did understand the gospel and decided it was not the answer for him. I repeat, it was not that he misunderstood it, and has departed in ignorance. Jason grasped it, confessed it, was ordained to it, promised to defend it, and then defected consciously from the system of doctrine he promised to uphold.
We've considered the Roman claims, tested them by the Word, and rejected them. Our confession stands because the Word stands. This doesn't mean that the issues are not worth engaging. They are. This doesn't mean that the Romanist claims aren't worth refuting. They are. It's that Jason isn't the fellow with whom we should be having this debate, if only for his sake. There is a bigger problem that the bigger picture exposes. We should be conscious of those who are carried about by every wind of doctrine. The most loving thing we could do for Jason right now is to stop engaging him.
-- from the online article The problem of theological narcissism-- stop giving Jason Stellman attention, please!
I read his Dual Citizens book, back before he jumped ship. I remember thinking at the time that there was something kind of odd about his take on things. A subjective judgement.
I wonder how his old church is doing.
I don't follow. If scripture is the “ultimate and
infallible” authority that leaves no room for
another, unless there is a "penultimate and infallible"
authority which would be a contradiction. So we
are talking here of Sola Scriptura which Stellman
could no longer accept
"There are true spiritual authorities in this world that do not occupy the highest place, and the Northwest Presbytery of the PCA is one of them."
Yes, according to your belief, but fallible.
This person's argument does nothing to refute Stellman's
correct understanding of Sola Scriptura.
How does that work when Tradition is made ultimate? Or when the Pope is made ultimate? How do either of those things "leave room for the other"? Something will get the tiebreaker vote and overrule the rest, when issues of apparent conflict arise. Sola Scriptura says that what we know that God has said, i.e. scripture, gets that final tiebreaking vote.
What is your church's tiebreaker, Gonzo?
The Word of God alone is supreme. This Word is transmitted
both through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition:
2 Th 2:15: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
The interpreter of the Word of God is the Church:
..the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Tim 3:15
guided by the Holy Spirit:
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your
remembrance all that I have said to you. Jn 14:26
So there you have it: God revealing and God interpreting.
Good night. Someone else can go on from here.
Ever heard of the phrase "self-authenticating"? If the Word alone was supreme, it would possess final ability and authority to interpret itself - your church could not claim final authority or ability to interpret it. But since your church does not recognize the Word's ability to interpret itself apart from the church, your church claims for itself the tiebreaker vote.
Yesterday saw...a forceful plea from a key papal advisor [Bishop Salvatore Fisichella, the rector of the Lateran University and President of the Pontifical Academy for Life] to reject the idea of Christianity as a “Religion of the Book”...........the big debate over Dei Verbum at the time of the council pitted what was then known as the “two-source theory,” which held that Scripture and tradition are essentially two separate streams of revelation, against the “one-source theory,” which posited that Scripture is the lone source of revelation and tradition is an elaboration of it. In effect, Dei Verbum held that Scripture and tradition are interdependent and integrally related to one another.
-- from the thread Synod: Christianity not a 'Religion of the Book'
Thank you. We're done here.
The Word of God alone is supreme. This Word is transmitted both through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition:
what does he reference? Scripture, only.
Please show me a video, or even a still picture, of the Bible interpreting itself without human beings entering the equation.
It never happens, has never happened, and will never happen. That is simply not a claim that the Bible makes about itself anywhere. In fact, the Bible specifically talks about people interpreting it, and misinterpreting it. (cf 2 Pt 3:16)
(BTW, if you're thinking of quoting Hebrews 4:12, the verse refers to *Jesus*, not the Bible. Read Hebrews 4:13 if you don't believe me!)
And, by the way, "self-authenticating" and "self-interpreting" are not two ways of saying the same thing.
what does he reference? Scripture, only.
Sure, when what God revealed is in the written word.
If I wanted to know about what God revealed about the
Immaculate Conception then I would refer to Tradition.
"- your church could not claim final authority or ability to interpret it. But since your church does not recognize the Word's ability to interpret itself apart from the church, your church claims for itself the tiebreaker vote. "
GOD reveals His WORD through TRADITION and SCRIPTURE, and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT through the Church clarifies HIS INFALLIBLE WORD for our fallible minds. Once again, if this system is not followed you end up with 30,000 denominations.
And if it is followed, you end up with 400,000 independent Catholic ones.
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