Posted on 12/15/2013 9:14:52 AM PST by NYer
I am not a foot Doctor.
If the Marxist in the WH gets his way, I won’t be one for much longer either.
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Asked how he’d interpret that, Cardinal Burke, the head of the Vatican’s highest court, the Apostolic Signatura, responded that that the Pope "doesn't state that," admitting however that the Pope’s statements are “not altogether easy to interpret.” (Source)
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(See video directly here -- Raymond Arroyo Interview with Cardinal Raymond Burke -- begins at 14:54 of the video.)
Keeping an open mind, my own view is that Pope Francis is looking at Marxists knowing that God has converted Marxists in the past and they've become "former Marxists / good Christians", and God can convert current Marxists in the future and they will also become "former Marxists / good Christians", which are the good kind of Marxists. (This could apply as well to all sinners, murderers, Muslim terrorists, democrats, atheists, mainstream mediacs, etc.)
That said, it was unfortunate that Pope Francis used the term "trickle-down", as we heard the demonrats call Reagan's economic program "trickle-down" economics for more than eight years. Reagan's economic program ultimately lowered unemployment, and provided increased opportunities for Americans, but did not (and could not) guarantee economic equality for all Americans, as Americans must choose to grab hold of their opportunities and take full advantage of them -- they are not forced upon them.
(This is just like Pope Francis being able to offer everyone the opportunity to become good Christians, but he cannot force them to all become good Christians -- they have to personally grab hold of the opportunities presented to them, and take advantage of those opportunities themselves to become good Christians.)
insulting the Pope on a forum doesn’t help.Prayers for you and you family.
You are still incorrect. READ what was said.
I have been influenced by distributist thought, but in the cultural sphere, not the policy sphere.
I value craft over goods produced without attention to quality.
I believe in an apprenticeship model, and hire and develop employees this way. I deliberately have a few very junior people as well as senior people in my organization doing similar work.
I work at a large company, but value small business and small government. I believe that big business generally prefers big government, and is often as much a threat to liberty as left-wing advocacy groups.
None of this has a direct effect on my policy preferences.
I would like to hear the answer to this question. This could be its own thread.
Anyone can say “Marxist ideology is wrong” while advocating for open borders, higher taxes and wealth redistribution.
Excellent observations. It is challenging for secularists to comprehend the notion of ‘conversion of heart’. Thanks for the post and ping.
It is a scandal that our President has latched onto some of what the Pope has said (wrt economic matters) to further his (Obama’s) agenda. But the Pope can’t be beholden to what others may or may not do with his words.
Again, after all of this bru-ha-ha, all “we” have proven is that the Pope associates with Marxists, and calls some (the ones he knows personally) “good”. Again, big whoop. He’s a priest, he’s supposed to associate with sinners, as a representative of Christ. And as little Jeremiah pointed out upthread, good people can see the good in others, evil can only see evil; I would only add that also, good people are willing to be generous with an estimation of good in others.
At least kind people are willing to do that. Maybe that’s a bit too naïve for some, but I don’t care if one wishes to be so judgmental. Regardless, at worse, naïveté is at least not a sin, and the type of naïveté we’re talking about here is economic naïveté, NOT within the purview of the Pope’s mandate. Again, for the third time, his job is to lead souls to Christ, not convert people out of Marxism.
As far as his opinion about free market enterprise, who knows, maybe his experience of “capitalism” has been forever colored by his Latin American experience. That is, forever damaged.
At the end of the day, he’s not a Marxist and therefore not promoting Marxism. He’s allowed to be wrong about economics while still being an effective witness for Christ.
Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t give someone the title of Pope, and then excuse what he says as private conversations about personal relationships….and you can’t have him release major statements and then not hold him responsible for his words being fodder for an evil President.
Sorry sorry sorry…..you are trying to defend him as a man of great import on the one hand….and then say ‘hey, he’s just chatting” on the other. That my friend is illogical.
I agree completely. I also believe that this is the necessary starting point to understanding Pope Francis and whatever he is communicating. He is laser focused on finding "... the 99 who we’re missing!”, wherever they are.
Regarding the age old question ... 'Is man inherently good?' ... Pope Francis answers with a resounding 'Yes!'.
Frankly he needs to simply button up rather than show his ignorance on the matters of economics. I might expect this from a muzzie, but what he is saying is really unbecoming (and unworthy) of the head of the Roman Catholic church.
A lot of people are excusing it when they should be quite disturbed that he is telling the world some deep untruths. The lefties of America are all over this, celebrating. Too many here do not understand this fact.
Alright then, let me apologize for the confusion I caused. Let me be try to be clear now:
I’m not trying to say that his words, even when he talks about some Marxists he apparently knows are “good”, in his opinion, aren’t important words to consider. For Catholics they certainly are; everything the Pope says should, for Catholics, be considered very carefully. Indeed here, his statement that “[some Marxists] are good people” should be taken as a serious provocation for any who find the statement initially objectionable.
“Is it possible for a Marxist to be a good person? What does it even mean to be a ‘good person’? If they can be a good person and still Marxist, or even if not, how then, should we treat such people? Are they ‘ok’ the way they are simply because they are ‘good’, or are they completely lost to Satan? Should we dismiss them as ‘completely evil’, which can be a bit too convenient at times, or should we still attempt to be a witness to Christ to them?” These are questions we should ask ourselves, at least every Catholic should consider, as this is what the Pope is asking us to do, as the pastoral priest I mentioned earlier.
I pretty much assumed the above was common knowledge, or at least commonly assumed by others as well, when I made my previous post on the subject (if not also prior posts). Regardless though, if one does not wish to do such work above (which IMO seems like good work, such difficult questions, if examined honestly, could lead one to a deeper understanding of one’s role as a Christian, if not merely the “role” of being a human being as God intends), then minus that, we are still left with two facts that I stated before but will repeat here for conclusive clarity.
One, he’s the Pope not a scholar of economics and this ultimately should be regarded the same.
Two, if one does not wish to do the honest work implied above, as Obama clearly does not, clearly Obama only wishes to further his ideological agenda, and not enrich his or anyone’s humanity, then one should just ignore what the Pope has said about his Marxist friends, and also ignore any economic advice the Pope may have given.
This is because to do as Obama has done is clearly ripping the Pope’s words out of context. The Pope can’t be held liable for some mental midget like Obama implying his exhortation is an exhortation of Marxism! His (the Pope’s) hope is not to set us on a path to socialism, rather to set us on a path to holiness, part of which does, whether one wishes to believe it or not, mean treating even Marxists with dignity.
Well we disagree on a lot, but I appreciate your thoughtful and cogent responses and your mature tone. Fregards…
But to impose it on a grand scale, which is what it would need to be, demands a large, powerful, governing body. In the olden days, that was a guild. The problem becomes that when there is no legal competition, there is little to push quality. It becomes what many in small towns see in their grocery stores. You pay top dollar for bad or rotten products.
In the US today, there are still a few guilds in areas like coffin making. They are very jealous of their market, and ruthless in protecting it. Hence why a $1,500 casket is marketed at $10,000.
This too shall pass. And IMHO, it won't be long ... they hate him down deep and they're merely enjoying using him, and his words, for now. He has not said and does not believe that 'marxism' is better. It's obviously not and he knows that. I suspect that he will condemn marxism soon enough since it has caused 'FAR MORE damage to the human spirit'. I choose to believe that there is a method to his seeming 'madness'. Maybe a little Breitbart in him, setting the arrogant liberals up for their own comeuppance later.
It is alarming when he uses some of the same words - however, his are sincere and without any preferred worldly ideology; theirs are insincere and only about personal pride and a selfish lust for power. He truly cares about the poor while the liberals care about their own power and merely 'use' the poor to further that.
“There is nothing in the Exhortation that cannot be found in the social Doctrine of the Church. I wasn’t speaking from a technical point of view, what I was trying to do was to give a picture of what is going on. The only specific quote I used was the one regarding the “trickle-down theories” which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and social inclusiveness in the world. The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefitting the poor. But what happens instead, is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger nothing ever comes out for the poor. This was the only reference to a specific theory. I was not, I repeat, speaking from a technical point of view but according to the Church’s social doctrine. This does not mean being a Marxist.”
Pope Francis is all about the Great Commission and evaluates everything in light of the question ... "does this evangelize new souls?" His perspective is apolitical, non-technical and he knows that it will 'offend the comfortable'. He doesn't want anyone to be comfortable because he believes that has left too many 'sheep' still wandering about, lost and in need of being found.
Marxist? I don’t know. But he’s definitely a socialist.
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