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To: Salvation

It was not Always Catholic Belief:

Who is Jesus?

It is an important question. And what is the truth? At some point every Christian or aspiring Christian needs to answer this question for himself. Maybe you think it doesn’t matter? Read on.
The teaching of most Protestant Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church is that Jesus is God, one aspect of the Trinity. Albeit, there is a slightly nuanced difference with the Eastern Church in that they believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (or so I am told). However, there are groups, most notably the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses who believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. Generally, those groups are referred to as “cults” by Trinitarians. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the only non-trinitarian groups. Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God to name a few.
My own searching over the years has caused me to question and wonder about this and investigate the matter (and I do not belong to any of the above groups).
In the beginning of my own investigation into Christianity, I came across “tracts” that referred to Jesus as a “God Man”. I believe they were Roman Catholic tracts. Frankly, I was bothered by the idea of a man being God. Intuitively bothered. It didn’t sit well with me.
At that particular time, I attended a Victory Outreach Church briefly. I was bothered enough by the idea that I went to one of Senior Pastor’s with the question, “Is Jesus God?” I don’t recall the exact conversation but I did bring up many of the verses where Jesus is called the Son of God. I can’t recall the exact scriptures now (30 years later) but I do recall the gist of the conversation. The minister told me he had gone to the “Greek” to get his position. It was like pulling rank on an ignorant peasant. When I persisted in my questions, I was met with almost seeming hostility and told, “This Church believes in the Trinity!” The counseling session was abruptly ended.
I was bothered enough that I consulted another minister at another Church. I was told that Jesus was God’s messenger. It was told me with a certainty, and, frankly, I felt a certain inner relief.
Over the years, I have learned a few things about Christianity and the Trinity which I would like to share with you. Things I didn’t understand when the first minister pulled rank on me by saying he had gone to the “Greek”.
First of all, it has not always been the accepted teaching of the established Christian Church that Jesus is God, something that many Christians do not realize. It was only in the 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea that it became accepted Church Doctrine. The Nicean Creed was voted in and is repeated in Catholic Churches at Mass to this day. But repetition by itself does not make it true.
At the time of the Council of Nicea, there was a raging controversy between those who believed that Jesus was God and those that believed Jesus was less than the Father. The latter were called Arians. An honest person has to admit it was nearly three centuries after the death of Jesus that the “official” position of the Church became that Jesus is God. That is something that most Christians don’t know today. Three centuries is a long time, longer even than the length of modern day America. It was only after all the early followers of Jesus had died out that the Doctrine of the Trinity became accepted.
And even after the Council of Nicea voted that Jesus is God, there were subsequent Church Councils that resulted in a decision to the contrary when there was a pro-Arian Roman Emperor .It is no exaggeration to say the success or failure of the Trinitarian idea much depended on what the Roman Emperor at the time believed.
Trinitarianism was finally established by law when the Emperor Theodosius issued a decree which said ,” Heretics are to be driven from cities, villages, and communities. They are not able to hold public meetings or secret gatherings.”
What could not be enforced by Church Councils was enforced by the power of the Roman state.
So what does scripture have to say about all this?

Peter’s Confession of Christ

The book of Matthew recounts the Apostle Peter’s Confession of Christ:
Reading the Text
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you,” He asked; “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

20 Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.
*******************************
There can be no doubt Peter said Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus said he is right! Jesus is also saying “Upon this rock (Upon this type of man-someone who realizes the truth for himself)—he will build his Church”.

John 1:1

The scripture John 1:1 is the one most commonly used to “prove” that Jesus is God:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God , and the Word was God” .
Does that settle the matter?

No. Wikipedia has this to say regarding John 1:1 : The proper rendering into English from the original Koine Greek text continues to be a source of vigorous debate among Bible translators.

For example:

1970, 1989 The Revised English Bible reads: “...and what God was, the Word was”

You can read the entire Wikipedia article if you wish.

The point I am trying to make is that not all translations say that Jesus is God concerning John 1:1.
To base your entire Christian belief, theology, and Salvation on one verse would be a grave error. Of course, there may be some of you who are thinking “But Trinitarian Theology is the historical doctrine of the Christian Church.”

Well, not exactly. It has been the Doctrine of the Church only since 325 A.D. Almost 300 years elapsed before it became creed or dogma that Jesus is God. 300 years is a long time. America has not even been in existence 300 years.

One highly relevant scripture in John is cited below. It says what the purpose of
the book of John is:

John 20:30-31

“30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples,

which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that you might

believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might

have life through his name. “
It is an internal contradiction within the Book of John to use it to “prove” that Jesus is God, since the book clearly states that is not its purpose. Those that use the Book of John to “prove” Jesus is God are not using it for its intended purpose. Something to reflect upon.

Paul’s Conversion on the road to Damascus

Let us turn briefly to the Apostle Paul and his conversion on the road to Damascus, and what the Scripture has to say regarding it. As you may recall, Paul had a mystical encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus and was blind for three days. The Disciple Ananais went to the stricken Paul and laid hands on him. Paul received his sight and was baptized with the Spirit.
“And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul (Paul) certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the Synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”
There can be no doubt that after his conversion that Scripture says Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God!


90 posted on 12/22/2013 1:04:27 PM PST by tedw
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To: tedw

Another point.

In general,Trinitarians are most unloving towards those that
do not believe that Jesus is God, but that He is the Messiah and the Savior.

Not all, of course,but many. If you are going to disagree, at least try and do it in a loving spirit.

God will answer the sincere prayer of those who want to know the Truth. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.


92 posted on 12/22/2013 1:14:50 PM PST by tedw
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To: tedw; Salvation

***It was not Always Catholic Belief:***

Several years back on FR, there was a report of an ancient Christian Church found with mosaic pattern that declared the church was...”DEDICATED TO THE GOD JESUS”. It dated from around 250 AD.


93 posted on 12/22/2013 1:16:42 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: tedw; Salvation; All

“First of all, it has not always been the accepted teaching of the established Christian Church that Jesus is God, something that many Christians do not realize. It was only in the 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea that it became accepted Church Doctrine.”


An absurd (though typical of the cults) argument for two reasons. The first is that the scripture is far older than 325AD, and the early Church only defended these teachings on the basis of their clear existence within the scripture, not based on any mere fancy. Nor did they support it based on it being a new doctrine, but rather as an old one they had been defending for a very long time.

Note Augustine and the way he speaks of the matter:

“For the notice of the Trinity is here [in Scripture] conveyed to us plainly and without leaving room for doubt or hesitation. For the Lord Christ Himself coming in the form of a servant to John, is doubtlessly the Son: for it cannot be said that it was the Father, or the Holy Spirit. ‘Jesus,’ it is said, ‘cometh;’ that is, the Son of God. And who hath any doubt about the Dove? or who saith, ‘What is the Dove?’ when the Gospel itself most plainly testifieth, ‘The Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove.’ And in like manner as to that voice there can be no doubt that it is the Father’s, when He saith, ‘Thou art My Son.’ Thus then we have the Trinity distinguished.” (Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament, 2:1)

Secondly, the idea that it does not have a long pedigree is false, since the belief that Jesus is God, for example, has always been stated. Take for instance the writings of these Christians ranging from before the end of the 1st century and into the 2nd and 3rd centuries, long before Nicea:

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch. 0)

Tertullian

“As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian)

“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Letter to the Ephesians, ch. 7)

Another example:

“...God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life.”( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)

Again

“Continue inseparable from Jesus Christ our God.”( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)

More, from other folks:

Justin Martyr ( 140 A.D.) “the word of wisdom, who is himself God begotten of the Father of all things, and word, and wisdom, and power, and the glory of the begetter, will bear evidence to me”.(Dialogue with Tropho Ch.61)

“God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

“For Christ is King, and Priest, and God and Lord...”(Dialogue With Trypho, 34)

“...He preexisted as the Son of theCreator of things, being God, and that He was born a man by the Virgin.” (Dialogue With Trypho, 48 )

“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5-6).

Polycarp (70-160). Bishop of Smyrna.A disciple of John the Apostle. “O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever”

“Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Himself, the God Jesus Christ, build you up in the faith...”( The Epistle of Polycarp to the Church at Philippi, 12

Iranaeus Iranaeus (120-202) “In order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King...”(Irenaeus Against Heresies, 1.10.1)

180 A.D. “But he Jesus is himself in his own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, and king eternal, and the incarnate word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles …The Scriptures would not have borne witness to these things concerning Him, if, like everyone else, He were mere man.” (Against Heresies 3:19.1-2)

“For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’”.( Against Heresies, 4:10)

So, if you expect us to believe that Christians from the very beginning did not believe the scripture’s clear teachings on the deity of Christ, you will have to try a lot harder than this.

“The point I am trying to make is that not all translations say that Jesus is God concerning John 1:1.
To base your entire Christian belief, theology, and Salvation on one verse would be a grave error.”


You didn’t actually provide a link to support your assertion. So, as of yet, you have not actually made an argument against John 1:1. Nor is it the only text used to prove the deity of Christ, though it is one of my favorite ones.

For other examples, here is Christ speaking of Himself in Revelation.

Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev_1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Compare with God speaking in the Old Testament:

Isa_48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

I’ll also add that the concept of there being more than one Almighty is an absurd one. If Christ is almighty, but is not God, or if there is more than one God, then one cannot be “almighty,” since you’re not all powerful over the other all powerful individual.


96 posted on 12/22/2013 1:39:47 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: tedw

Try pinging multiple screen names instead of spamming an entire thread.


122 posted on 12/22/2013 4:06:40 PM PST by redleghunter
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