Posted on 01/21/2014 12:12:51 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
While Calvisnism looks good on paper --- in real time and in the here and now it comes up short:
A person can be heard accepting Christ as savior, can be seen bearing good fruit, living for the Lord for years, etc, and then later on they start acting in such a way that causes some to think that they were either "falsely saved" (and thus seemingly somehow duped those around them for some time) or at best they are "out of fellowship" with Christ, but nonetheless still saved.
A.) Two people can be bearing bad fruit, committing sin, etc, and one (to others around him) is said to be "falsely saved" according to Calvinism, and the other is said to be "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ according to Calvinism. And, ironically, they are committing similar sins --- and we don't know to what degree one is worse (than the other) in committing bad fruit, as we cannot see the totality of both of their lives 24/7, 365. Ergo: We can't tell them apart (the one who was falsely saved, and the other who is out of fellowship with Christ).
B.) So... we go by the book of Matthew and confront them as Jesus said. Both (at seperate times) refuse the exortation from one Christian to repent, then two Christians, and finally the church at large where they attend. Thus, the church treats them as an heathen... but fails to see that one is throwing a spiritual temper tantrum, is still saved (as God sees this in their heart,) and will within a year repents and is back in fellowship with Christ. But both were deemed to have been "falsely saved." Thus, the local church erred. You see... the one who is "out of fellowship" with Christ refused at that time to repent, just as the one who is falsely saved. Ergo: no way to tell them apart.
C.) John MacArthur says in his Study Bible that their departure is their unmasking. Problerm is, is that we don't know if they will or won't return. They may indeed return 5 years later, and thus the church had hastily said that they were "falsely saved" when they were actually "out of fellowship with Christ." Ergo: no way to tell the two (1.) falsely saved, 2.) out of fellowship with Christ) apart.
D.) Paul the Apostle apparently could tell that the Thessalonians were saved, as the scriptures declare such. But he was an Apsotle. None of those around anymore, right? And he was writing scripture, and thus the HOLY SPIRIT moving upon him was telling him that the Thessalonians were saved. The aformentioned in D.) held true for John, too. No scriptures is being written, and no Apostles anymore... Ergo: no way to tell...
E.) Saying that "those that endure to the end shall be saved" works in the eternal future when all things are made new, but it does not tell us who is "falsely saved" or who is "out of fellowship with Christ" right now in real time.
F.) We cannot see the totality of a person's fruit 24/7, 365, so "by their fruit shall ye know them" works in showing us the really hard core cases, andf showing us eventually, but it does not say if and when they will stop committing bad fruit and thus show that (for a time) they were "out of fellowship" with Christ, or if they were "falsely saved." It does tell us that something is wrong with their lives, though.
G.) Looking for "God's blessing" on their lives as evidence of who are the "Elect" is using anecdotal evidence and is dangerous to rely upon - even though Calvin said as much about looking for things to see just who might be the elect. All of this in G.) is dangerosuly close to WOF (Word of Faith) doctrine.
Ergo Sum: Good luck in differentiating between who is "falsely saved" and the one who is truly saved, but nonetheless "out of fellowship" with Christ. ;).
This thread is the end of the line in this sphere and arena...
Punch 2 and maybe you’ll get saved twice. :>)
Ping to #20.
Lot was called *righteous Lot* in 2 Peter. Hardly a term that I’d use to describe Lot.
David committed adultery and murder. Wanna guess whether he was saved or not?
Joseph was accused of rape, thus being thrown in prison. I don’t know if those charges were ever dropped.
Moses murdered a man.
Samson was no paragon of virtue either.
Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and glutton for eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners.
Appearances can be deceitful and we need to be careful of judging a person’s salvation by their ability to conquer the sin which so easily besets all of us. Those works are not necessarily an indicators of one’s salvation.
The message of the cross of which we are ambassadors, is one of reconciliation.
If the person is not saved, it’s reconciliation with God through Jesus Christ for salvation. If they are saved, it is reconciliation for the purpose of restoring fellowship. God is responsible for ensuring the person’s salvation. We can pray and we can encourage, rebuke, exort, etc, but we are not the final Judge and jury.
Interesting - didn’t know they look the same until they’re close to harvest. Guess they aren’t normal weeds you’d know right away they weren’t wheat.
Given Joseph became the second in command of all of Egypt under Pharoah, you can be assured those charges were dropped.
Yes, exactly. Everything he points out is true, but it doesn’t really invalidate Calvinism, since Calvinism doesn’t claim to tell us who is and who isn’t saved.
I thought 1 was for English.
They keep changing these dang phone menus!
so go ahead and push #1....it certainly can't hurt you, and you may get a free offer of a bible or something!!!
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Can we as Christians know that all believers will endure to the end? Yes, because it is Christ who keeps us.
PHI 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
JOH 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1PE 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
The only one who can answer if they're a true believer is themselves. Therefore, we cannot judge others.
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BUT STOP...... if you call in the next 20 minutes, we will double the offer....you pay only shipping and handling!!!.....twice the demons off your dishes....
how can you lose?????
Maybe because I care about my children, my parents, my siblings, my friends, my relatives, etc.? It pains me to think that they might spend their eternity separated from God.
While we can never definitely know, one's fruits can certainly provide some assurance.
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