Posted on 01/22/2014 9:30:46 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
Thanks Cvengr. I think you have the same problem here though:
>>We confess our postsalvation sins to Him (not a new salvation, but simply a washing of those areas needing cleansing.) He is sure and just to forgive us those sins (1stJn 1:9)
And if you do not confess them, He does not “forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
That’s right. If we don’t return to Him and confess our sins to Him, we remain out of fellowship with Him. That is different than loss of salvation.
It just means there are lots of predestined rewards God had created for us, which at the bema seat we won;t qualify to receive and will lose those rewards for all eternity future.
Wouldn’t that also mean, in addition to “out of fellowship” that a saved person was not forgiven or “cleansed from all unrighteousness” ?
I appreciate that you added repentance for our sins, re: “Postsalvation sin. Again, Repentance and confession.”
I think you could say one does not really occur without the other; but, for this discussion, wouldn’t your theology allow for a saved person without repentance?
Saved as in possessing a regenerated human spirit and a new man in him, which has been sealed by God the Holy Spirit.
We still have a scarred soul (nous) which can effect our heart in our behavior.
There is now a portion of us which is veritable, namely that which God has breathed into us in our regenerate spirit. That is the starting point by which He is able to slowly cleanse the rest of us.
If we fall out of fellowship, we still have the human spirit, but we become tainted in our perspective. Until we turn back to Him, we don’t have a veritable resource upon which to rely, because we now approach Him from the perspective of guilt, instead of fellowship. When we confess our sins to Him, we are performing an action of the heart, a part of the soul, which now faces back to Him and He is one that forgives, because He is free to forgive and by His grace forgives us through faith in Christ and His work on the Cross.
Thanks very much for your reply.
I really don’t see how it responds to: “wouldn’t your theology allow for a saved person without repentance?”
And the same question for - absent confession - forgiveness, etc.
Presalvation repentance? No.
Postsalvation repentance? Yes,..namely the sin unto death if the believer out of fellowship continues down a path such that all opportunities for God the Holy Spirit to perform a good work in us are all burnt up, so to speak.
Since God does nothing that is good for nothingness, He will not continue to indwell us, if all instances in His Plan have been denied to the point where we are no longer effectual and refuse to return to Him.
It is also possible for believers to fall out of fellowship, remain saved, but fail to walk the walk. Divine discipline manifests He still loves us in these situations. Not all adversity is from His discipline, but some discipline is rendered to get our attention for us to return to Him.
A good example is Paul and his many stays in prison when Paul attempted to return to Jerusalem to teach the Pharisees and Jews, when in God's Plan, Paul was to be an Apostle to the Gentiles and go to Rome.
Ok.. I find your theology a bit complicated.. sorry :)
But.. would I be correct in saying you do not belong to those who believe Once Saved Always Saved?
I have to clarify this part though:
>>”Postsalvation repentance? Yes”
One can enter Heaven with sins they do not repent of? Is there a limit here, either qualitative or quantitative?
Without trying to sound snarky....
What's your point? why are you belaboring this question?
What is catching you up about sins believers commit after they're saved?
As long as it doesn’t interfere with His integrity of Perfect Righteousness and Perfect Justice, and His Word, He is free to forgive as He chooses.
The Cross was all about Judgment, not forgiveness. Forgiveness is now possible because of Christ’s work on the Cross.
Consider the crowds who cursed and tempted Christ on His way to Calvary. He prayed to the Father to forgive them for they knew not what they did. They obviously weren’t righteous by Divine Standards in their behavior and their judgment, but He was still free to forgive them.
Conversely, there are those who are enemies of Christ, who believe they can take advantage of His mercy and still not be held accountable, yet still hate Christ and He has never known them. Obviously, the types of people who will not be saved will include this category of unbeliever.
IMHO, we are witnessing a cosmic panoply where not only the fallen angels will be sent to the lake of fire, but those who always reject his plan, will also become so heinously evil, that all of Creation will see no viable alternative for Creation to exist by God’s Plan without them being so condemned and placed there.
His Plan was brilliant in that we all were condemned before we were saved.
No. No sin can enter heaven. When this body dies, the sin is gone. The new nature is without sin and can therefore enter the presence of God. That explains Romans 7&8.
For the unbeliever, there is no new nature, so when the body dies, the sin condemns them.
For the believer, the death of the body is counted as already having happened.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Salvation is a done deal.
No, I fully believe in OSAS and 1st Jn 3:21 regarding our assurance of our eternal security.
Great point.
I suspect it segues into the studies of being refined like fine gold, with all the dross being removed.
Our eternal self is continually sanctified by God the Holy Spirit while we are alive, and at the bema seat we have eternal rewards/crowns given us as resources for all eternity future.
Somebody who sins and doesn’t confess after salvation isn’t getting away with anything, rather they are losing eternal rewards.
I suspect those who are preoccupied in attacking “Easy-Belief-ism” perceive an injustice occuring where a sinner gets the same thing as a saint. They misunderstand which rewards will be missed by those remaining in sin.
The unbeliever loses an opportunity for a crown of life, because they never appear at the bema seat judgment. The Great White Throne Judgment consults the Books of Names and Works for justification.
So, if I’m understanding you, you can commit any and all sin, not confess any and also be completely unrepentant of same...
And still be with God in heaven?
Will there be regret, remorse, or envy for some in heaven?
Red herring because someone with that attitude is not saved.
I and others have said it before and I'll say it again.
No believer believes that their security is a license to sin.
Salvation is not fire insurance. It's a restored relationship with the living God which is manifest in a changed life because the person has a new nature.
So if we miss confessing some sin because we forgot or didn't realize that we had sinned (unintentional sins) then we're covered anyway.
Even if we sin deliberately, there is still the issue of God dealing with it here on earth. God chastises those he loves and disciplines us for our own good. No believer, even if they sin deliberately, is getting away with anything.
At the most extreme, God will ensure an early death before losing someone.
God WANTS to save us. He's not looking for excuses to damn us. We're already damned because of our sin. He's basically looking for excuses (if you will) to save us, hence His grace and mercy.
Romans 2:
12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
A read through the epistle of James, which like Romans, was also written to the out of covenant House of Israel, might also be in order
.
A well known mormon doctrine, but nowhere to be found in Yehova’s word.
On the contrary:
Matthew 24:
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
I think you’re making a distinction without a difference.
You seem to be saying one can and sin without repentance and be saved; but no one saved would.
So you can if you are saved, but if you do you are not saved.
IOW, bottom line, you can’t and be saved. Correct?
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