Posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
Isn’t it rather hypocritical to in one post accuse of snarky and in the very next post continue with your own snarky comments?
I did not suggest the marriage feast involved the birds. That was your assumption.
>>>Besides not only does the antichrist sign a peace treaty first but then the antichrist puts an end to the sacrifices then sets himself up as God in the Holy Place.<<<
"Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Cynical Bear, you have completely misinterpreted Daniel 9:27 if you think it has anything to do with the abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of; or of some imaginary antichrist. The abomination of desolation Jesus was speaking of occurred when Antiochus IV took away the daily sacrifice and set the image of Jupiter upon the altar. This is from an 1884 Jamieson, Fausset & Brown commentary on Daniel chapter 12:
"As to this epoch, which probably is prophetically germinant and manifold; the profanation of the temple by Antiochus: (in the month Ijar of the year 145 B. C., till the restoration of the worship by Judas Maccabeus on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month (Chisleu) of 148 B. C., according to the Seleucid era, 1290 days; forty-five days more elapsed before Antiochus’ death in the month Shebat of 148 B. C., so ending the Jews’ calamities;"
There! The 1290 day and 1335 day mysteries are instantly solved: 1290 days of profanation, and another 45 days until the evil one was dead. That bit about Antiochus IV, by the way, is fairly common knowledge. You can read it about in Josephus, 1st Maccabees, and about a zillion commentaries on Daniel.
Think about it: how could the Jews know what to look for if a similar event had not already been fulfilled and was a part of their history? Daniel 9:27 certainly doesn't tell you much.
Philip
Your complete disregard for pertinent scripture and injection of you own meaning in others is simply stunning.
>>>Isn’t it rather hypocritical to in one post accuse of snarky and in the very next post continue with your own snarky comments?<<<
For once I agree with you. And there is plenty of hypocrisy to go around, don’t you think?
But it is sorta fun throwing snarks back at the snarks. I realize my snarky comments are not nearly as acceptable as the snarky comments of those adhering to the forum’s self-appointed, inner-sanctum’s list of approved eschatologies; but it is fun.
Philip
>>>I did not suggest the marriage feast involved the birds. That was your assumption.<<<
You really do need to work on that reading comprehension.
No, in a religion discussion it is NOT considered fun. It’s offensive and clearly isn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit.
>>>Your complete disregard for pertinent scripture and injection of you own meaning in others is simply stunning.<<<
I was hoping for a scholarly, substantive, critical analysis, that would indicate at least a minimal level of comprehension. Rather I got Canned Response #266 (CR#266).
I’ve seen how you respond to “scholarly, substantive, critical analysis” and I have more productive things to do.
How do you explain this:
"LOL It’s nearly impossible to debate scripture with preterists."
That was YOU in your post #280 of this very thread.
Was your LOL not fun, CB? Were you holding back the tears while writing that?
Don't you think you are being a bit hypocritical?
No. Nothing you say is offensive or hypocritical, is it CB?
Lovingly, in Christ.
Philip
>>>I’ve seen how you respond to “scholarly, substantive, critical analysis” and I have more productive things to do.<<<
Is that why you keep lurking, hoping to find an opening so you cast an aspersion or two at me? Because you have better things to do? Is that what you consider better things to do, CB?
Lovingly in Christ,
Philip
You write that the world will not be destroyed and you offer John 3:16 as evidence. Peter writes that it will be. John writes that the world is passing away in 1John 2:15-17. Yes, they use the same Greek word for "world"
>>>Its focus is the judgment on the Jews and the destruction of Jersualem.<<< That takes a lot of the heat off of us. What is morbid about that? That places all general (national) judgements in the past. Futurism is the truly morbid doctrine: from their literal interpretations of "all green grass is burnt up," to a "third part of men slain," to the "great tribulation" which they miraculously escape from!
It is morbid to focus on the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD as the culmination of all prophecy and the end of earthly Israel. It was neither. You ignore the larger revolt in 132-135 where the Romans sent twice as many soldiers (120,000 vs. 60,000 in 68AD). Jewish casualties were possibly twice as many too. Josephus' estimate of 1.1 million is disputed to be as low as 250,000. Cassius Dio estimated the 400,000 to 580,000 Jews killed in the second war. The nation of Israel still exists on this earth with a future from God. There they are about 6 million Jews in the Land of Israel, with about half a million of those Jews living in Jerusalem. Their return to the Land of Israel after 18 centuries of dispersion throughout the world is a modern, historical miracle. Against incredible statistical odds the Jews have returned to the land before your very eyes. They were almost completely eradicated just last century. They had no army to speak of, no allies. They were invaded by the armies of five Arab countries. How did it happen they were not driven into the sea and annihilated ? How were the Jews in Jerusalem, cut off and surrounded, not destroyed in 1948 ? It was razor thin. You do not attribute that massive movement of Jews to God. To whom do you attribute it ? The adversary ? the spirit of man ?
All anyone needs to do is read through THIS thread to easily see who matches those characteristics. Your responses to just about everyone are filled with sarcasm, snideful and insulting comments. You presume anyone who doesn't see things like you do is an idiot and Biblically ignorant.
I haven't lied. I have NOTHING to apologize for nor admit to any mistakes, had the argument been as you claimed, I wouldn't have needed to pursue it any further. You are wrong about your eschatology just as you were wrong about Elijah and John the Baptist. Just like you are doing on this thread, the “bully” posture intimidates NO ONE. Maybe one day you will learn that.
Post #266 was a well reasoned attempt to mentor fellow posters on solid theology.
It is a natural progression of your interpretation that the rapture/resurrection of Israel has already occurred. The Gentiles would have been left behind because they were not Jews, not Israel. That fits nicely with your theory that the Catholic Church is apostate (Left Behind Gentiles could not figure it out by themselves and fell into verious errors). What you don't seem to realize is you are part of a small, recent movement (the same criticism you have a Darby and Scofield, except there is historical evidence of their view in the early Church Fathers, though it was certainly not unanimous; hence the Catholic position of not being dogmatic on what remains unknown but being dogmatic about the basics: the imminent return that has not happened yet, the special part Israel has to play and their ultimate national redemption through no merit of their own but just to show God's mercy and complete his Jewish and Gentile family.
I already posted the latest historical evidence that the Jewish believers who escaped to Pella in 70 AD returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt their Messianic Synagogue after the end of the Jewish-Roman wars because they realized that the expected return of Messiah had not occurred yet. This is congruent with the testimony of the Church Fathers and tradtion of the Catholic Church, which is why almost all Orthodox, Fundamentalist, and Evangelical Christians are still waiting for the imminent return of the LORD Jesus Christ.
I think everyone here has had about enough of his bully tactics and snark. I think this entire thread should die.
The story of the ancient world is recorded by several historians of old, such as Homer, Josephus, Tacitus, Xenophon, Herodotus—called “the father of history,” and Thucydides, who is credited as being one of the most trustworthy of ancient sources. All of them suffer in comparison to the historical pinpoint accuracy of Luke.
Luke was undeniably brilliant, possessing remarkable literary abilities and a deep knowledge of the Greek language. He was the only non-Jewish author of the Bible. Yet he wrote more of the New Testament than anyone else—28 percent. He was a physician and a scientist. He was a writer and a medical missionary. He has proved himself a historian of first rank. Here he tells us that before writing his Gospel, he did the work of an investigative journalist, recording his findings in an orderly manner based on careful investigation: “It seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught” (
With that in mind, remember that Luke painstakingly and confidently described the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in his Gospel, chapters 23 and 24; and he repeatedly made reference to the Resurrection in the book of Acts.
The brilliant Wilbur Smith said:
"Of all the writers in the New Testament, Luke was the one who knew better than any of them, from his own medical experience, that it was utterly impossible for a dead body to come to life again by its own power. He was also a man who would have no faith in such a great doctrine as the resurrection of Christ, were it based upon a vision, a hallucination, mental excitement, or the blowing of the wind, or the rattling of a window. It was the conviction of this scientist and scholar, true Grecian and true Christian, that the Lord manifested himself to his disciples in many proofs."
To reject the Resurrection, you have to disregard the demonstrated reliability of one of the foremost historians of the first century, a man who has been proven accurate even in the minutia of his narrative. How accurate was Luke's historical record? He tied everything into history and gave us historical anchors all along the way, both in his Gospel and Acts. His historical pegs have proven accurate even in minute points. For example, notice the way he began chapter 2: those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) And everyone went to his own town to register” (Luke 2:1–3).
Luke did not just say that Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem. He said they traveled there because of a census instituted by Caesar Augustus and that this particular census occurred while a man named Quirinius was governor of Syria. A hundred years ago, critics had a field day with that statement, finding no evidence in history to suggest that Caesar ever issued such a decree. Furthermore (critics charged) there was nothing to suggest that Quirinius was ever governor of Syria at the time prescribed by Luke. Then a series of discoveries were made. Sir William Ramsay, the Scottish archaeologist, dug up first-century documents showing that the Roman Empire conducted a regular taxpaying census every fourteen years and that this system originated in the days of Caesar Augustus. Another document was found in Egypt, an edict of G. Vibius Maximus written on papyrus, describing the procedure used in such a census, directing taxpayers to return to their ancestral towns to register. Another inscription discovered by Ramsay in Antioch showed that with brief interruptions, a man named Quirinius functioned as military governor in Syria from 12 b.c. to a.d. 16.
Notice in the next chapter, Luke 3, how meticulously Luke nails down his historical references: “In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene—during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert” (Luke 3:1–2)
Sound like misty legend and fabricated fable? Anything but! Luke tacks John’s ministry to the wall of history using six different pins. John the Baptist appeared when (1) Tiberius Caesar was in his fifteenth year of rule; (2) Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea; (3) Herod was tetrarch of Galilee; (4) Herod’s brother Philip was tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis; (5) Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene; and (6) Annas and Caiaphas were sharing the office of high priest. Most of these facts are easy to verify, but a couple of them caused problems. A hundred years ago, critics were attacking Luke’s reference to Lysanias, saying, “The only Lysanias mentioned in history was killed in 36 b.c., sixty years before John the Baptist.” But the critics were stilled when archaeologists excavated an inscription near Damascus, stating that a man named Lysanias was indeed tetrarch of Abilene at the time mentioned by Luke.
The skeptics also made hay with Pontius Pilate. For most of modern history his name has been absent on every historical document we have from the ancient world. Critics charged that Pilate was a fabrication. But a stone I have personally seen and took a picture of was excavated in Caesarea. It has the name Pontius Pilate plainly engraved for all the world to see. He was governor of Judea during the very time given by Luke, and he was headquartered at Caesarea.
I mentioned earlier how William Ramsay traveled to the Middle East to disprove Luke’s historical references and how, to his great surprise, he found the writings of Luke accurate in their tiniest details. This is even more remarkable when we consider that every other historian in the ancient world—men like Polybius, Quintilian, Xenophon, Josephus, and even Thucydides—did not hesitate to misrecord the facts to suit their own purposes.
>>>Post #266 was a well reasoned attempt to mentor fellow posters on solid theology<<<
LOL! Redleghunter, I pulled that number out of my hat. It was not intended to refer to any post, but rather an imaginary canned response.
Again, 266 was just a number off the top of my head. I would never consider any of your well-reasoned posts as canned.
My apologies.
Philip
You didn't give a reference for Peter. I will assume are not referring to 2 Peter 3.
What do think these mean?
"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph 3:21)
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)
"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." (John 12:47)
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev 11:15)
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." (Mat 5:5)
"Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." (Ps 104:1-5 KJV)
"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." (Ecc 1:4 KJV)
"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else." (Isa 45:18 KJV)
Philip
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