Are the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven the same?

It only took 20 or so posts in this thread to reveal the purpose (clear to me by the title).

We could post relevant scripture all night long but it won't make any difference...

It appears the violent were, most likely, the chief priest, elders and Pharisees. Therefore, I conclude that when Jesus said the kingdom of God/heaven was at hand, he meant it was going to be taken away from the violent, and given to others. Does that sound reasonable?

Nope...

"And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? ...Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof ... And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them." (Mat 21:43. 45 KJV)

It's already been established the the kingdom of God is 'within you'...It is spiritual...It can not be physical...

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (Mat 11:12 KJV)

How would you expect violent people could physically take a spiritual kingdom by force??? Impossibility...The kingdom of heaven is the literal, physical kingdom sittin' on a piece of land...

>>>Yes I am painfully aware of your exchanges with afvet. He has the gift of patience.<<<

Do you have anything to contribute besides an attitude?

>>>What do you do with verses 13-15???<<<

Peter doesn't say in Acts 15 when he spoke of the fulfillment of Amos 9:11-12. I'm sure it didn't matter at the time, or he would have explained it. The old testament prophecy is so metaphorical and full of imagery, that even the prophets themselves couldn't understand it. Recall Daniel 12:

"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things. And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." (Dan 12:8-9)

The earlier part of Amos 9, through verse 10, seems to talk about the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred after the fulfillment of the verses 11-12. So it could be that the prophecy jumps around a lot.

The Jewish leadership certainly didn't understand it, or they would not have been expecting Elijah to come riding in on a whirlwind; and they would have expected Christ as he appeared. Jesus gave us a clue on the difficulty:

"For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." (Mat 13:17)

"For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." (Luke 10:24)

On thing we know about the old testament prophecy: it was all fulfilled by the end of AD 70:

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)

Philip

>>>What do you do with verses 13-15???<<<

This is what Matthew Henry said, starting at verse 12, for context:

II. That that kingdom shall be enlarged, and the territories of it shall extend far, by the accession of many countries to it (v. 12), that the house of David may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, that is, that Christ may have them given him for hisinheritance, even the uttermost parts of the earth for his possession, Ps. ii. 8. Those that had been strangers and enemies shall become willing faithful subjects to the Son of David, shall be added to the church, or those of them that are called by my name, saith the Lord,that is, that belong to the election of grace and are ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48), for it is true of the Gentiles as well as of the Jews that the election hath obtained and the rest were blinded, Rom. 11:7. Christ died to gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad, here said to be those that were called by his name. The promise is to all that are afar off, even as many of them as the Lord our God shall call, Acts 2:39. St. James expounds this as a promise that the residue of men should seek after the Lord, even all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called. But may the promise be depended upon? Yes, the Lord says this, who does this, who can do it, who has determined to do it, the power of whose grace is engaged for the doing of it, and with whom saying and doing are not two things, as they are with us.

III. That in the kingdom of the Messiah there shall be great plenty, an abundance of all good things that the country produces (v. 13): The ploughman shall overtake the reaper,that is, there shall be such a plentiful harvest every year, and so much corn to be gathered in, that it shall last all summer, even till autumn, when it is time to begin to plough again; and in like manner the vintage shall continue till seed-time, and there shall be such abundance of grapes that even the mountains shall drop new wine into the vessels of the grape-gatherers, and the hills that were dry and barren shall be moistened and shall melt with the fatness or mellowness (as we call it) of the soil. Compare this with Joel 2:24, and 3:18. This must certainly be understood of the abundance of spiritual blessings in heavenly things, which all those are, and shall be, blessed with, who are in sincerity added to Christ and his church; they shall be abundantly replenished with the goodness of God’s house, with the graces and comforts of his Spirit; they shall have bread, the bread of life, tostrengthen their hearts, and the wine of divine consolations to make them glad-meat indeed and drink indeed-all the benefit that comes to the souls of men from the word and Spirit of God. These had been long confined to the vineyard of the Jewish church; divine revelation, and the power that attended it, were to be found only within that enclosure; but in gospel-times the mountains and hills of the Gentile world shall be enriched with these privileges by the gospel of Christ preached, and professed, and received in the power of it. When great multitudes were converted to the faith of Christ, and nations were born at once, when the preachers of the gospel were always caused to triumph in the success of their preaching, then the ploughman overtook the reaper; and when, the Gentile churches were enriched in all utterance, and in all knowledge, and all manner of spiritual gifts(1 Co. 1:5), then the mountains dropped sweet wine.

IV. That the kingdom of the Messiah shall be well peopled; as the country shall be replenished, so shall the cities be; there shall be mouths for this meat, v. 14. Those that were carried captives shall be brought back out of their captivity; their enemies shall not be able to detain them in the land of their captivity, nor shall they themselves incline to settle in it, but the remnant shall return, and shall build the waste cities and inhabit them, shall form themselves into Christian churches and set up pure doctrine, worship, and discipline among them, according to the gospel charter, by which Christ’s cities are incorporated; and they shall enjoy the benefit and comfort thereof; they shall plant vineyards, and make gardens. Though the mountains and hills drop wine, and the privileges of the gospel-church are laid in common, yet they shall enclose for themselves, not to monopolize these privileges, to the exclusion of others, but to appropriate and improve these privileges, in communion with others, and they shall drink the wine, and eat the fruit, of their ownvineyards and gardens; for those that take pains in religion, as men must do about their vineyards and gardens, shall have both the pleasure and profit of it. The bringing again of the captivity of God’s Israel, which is here promised, may refer to the cancelling of the ceremonial law, which had been long to God’s Israel as a yoke of bondage, and the investing of them in the liberty wherewith Christ came to make his church free, Gal. 5:1.

V. That the kingdom of the Messiah shall take such deep rooting in the world as never to be rooted out of it (v. 15): I will plant them upon their land. God’s spiritual Israel shall be planted by the right hand of God himself upon the land assigned them, and they shall no more be pulled up out of it, as the old Jewish church was. God will preserve them from throwing themselves out of it by a total apostasy, and will preserve them from being thrown out of it by malice of their enemies; the church may be corrupted, but shall not quite forsake God, may be persecuted, but shall not quite be forsaken of God, so that the gates of hell, neither with their temptations nor with their terrors, shall prevail against it. Two things secure the perpetuity of the church:-1. God’s grants to it: It is the land which I have given them; and God will confirm and maintain his own grants. The part he has given to his people is that good part which shall never be taken from them; he will not revoke his grant, and all the powers of earth and hell shall not invalidate it. 2. Its interest in him: He is the Lord thy God, who has said it, and will make it good, thine, O Israel! who shall reign for everas thine unto all generations. And because he lives the church shall live also.

Peter doesn't say in Acts 15 when he spoke of the fulfillment of Amos 9:11-12. I'm sure it didn't matter at the time, or he would have explained it.

True...There was no need to since Jesus' own people had rejected him twice by then and God was moving along with his alternate plan, the church...

But as the church developed, we can bet that the apostles didn't ignore the Old Testament...They would have continued to teach that the Kingdom of Heaven was still ahead...

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

And when that tabernacle of David is rebuilt, this prophecy (and hundreds more like it) will finally come to fruition...

Amo 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

You said when we show you scripture that shows you are wrong, you will read it and admit it...But what is your response after seeing the scripture???

The old testament prophecy is so metaphorical and full of imagery, that even the prophets themselves couldn't understand it. Recall Daniel 12:

Now that's a cop out...I read it...I understand it...No problem...But then I didn't come into this with a preconceived notion where I had to make everything fit that notion...

And again: The old testament prophecy is so metaphorical and full of imagery, that even the prophets themselves couldn't understand it. Recall Daniel 12.

No, let's recall:

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

And let's recall

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

So now we know why they didn't understand the prophecies...It is NOT because they are metaphorical, or impossible for US to understand...

On thing we know about the old testament prophecy: it was all fulfilled by the end of AD 70:

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isa 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
Isa 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

We can be 100% certain this and hundreds of other prophecies have not taken place yet...These events will take place during the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ from the Holy See in Jerusalem with the REAL Holy Father sitting on the throne...

Mathew Henry was a Godly man who didn’t read nor write from a perspective of prophecy...His writing focus was on the life of the Christian in relationship to Jesus Christ...

Like I said, Miller repented of his foolishness, you should also.

Unfortunately, some of Miller's followers could not accept his repentance ... and they spawned off a movement that claimed exactly what you claim ... that the second coming has already happened, that Jesus is presently sitting on the throne of David ruling. You say 70AD, they say 1840-something ... no difference.

Paul rebuked the Thessalonians for believing the day of the Lord had already come ... you should listen to Paul ... not Gary DeMar.

Do you have anything to contribute besides an attitude?

What you may observe as "attitude" is actually a long history on my part when I see incomplete ideas asserted as complete and valid. I have sat through or read through quite a many concept brief or position paper in my long military career. I am at the point where within the first 5 minutes of such papers or briefings I can tell when a concept is not thoroughly presented or developed.

You presented the case that you are a self study on eschatology and have no outside influencers. That leads me to believe you yourself are admitting your concept is not ready for prime time. Any problem solving technique worth its salt presents things which are known, things we think are known and the unknown. In military terms we put such mission analysis as: (1) What do we know; (2) what do we think we know and (3) what is clearly unknown. The second and third above drive our "information requirements" for research. From the above a proper exegesis can be formed. In the military we call it "see the enemy, see the terrain, see yourself." Such can be applied to any logical argument or problem solving technique.

I think a lot of #1 above puts you in contention with many, as both external and internal evidence through centuries established at least most of Revelation to include the second coming and first resurrection as yet future. You put such events in the light of #1 as 'fact' instead of approaching it as #2 "something we think we know." That I think leads to most of the contention on these threads. You cannot get to the "meat of the matter" if your supposed 'facts' are diametrically opposed to others. Then add to this the technique you use to present your views. You present your views with use of comparison to opposing views. In effect your views are rebuttals and no more and when pressed for further review, there are shifting hermeneutics.

>>>There was no need to since Jesus' own people had rejected him twice by then and God was moving along with his alternate plan, the church...<<<

That is preposterous! That is a myth created by the masterminds of dispensationalism. The Church was not, and never was an alternate plan. It was spoken of by virtually all (if not all) of the prophets.

>>>But as the church developed, we can bet that the apostles didn't ignore the Old Testament...They would have continued to teach that the Kingdom of Heaven was still ahead... <<<

Of course they did. Jesus described the kingdom (heaven or God: no difference) as like a grain of mustard seed. Therefore, it is from both the past (the seed,) and the future (the branches that continue to grow, forever.)

That seed was Christ, the blessed seed of Abraham, who took the covenant (the kingdom) away from Israel, and claimed it as his own (Mat 21:43 KJV). Through that seed, Christ, are all the nations blessed, fulfilling the promise to Abraham:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Recall the blessing was given to the Jew, first, and then the Gentile:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first [Israel,] God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:25-26 KJV)

And if you are Christ's, then you, too, are a seed of Abraham:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)

If any of you have been reading the corrupted New King James Version, keep in mind that the corrupted scriptures provide support to the false doctrine of dispensationalism. For example, look at these passages from the 1611 KJV and the modern 1982 NKJV, respectively. In the old testament, as well as the new, the 1611 KJV indicates the promise is from a single seed of Abraham. The other, in the old testament, to his "descendants." Big difference:

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites." (Gen 15:18-21 KJV of 1611)

"On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates-- the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."" (Gen 15:18-21 NKJV of 1982)

This was not a simple mistake. It was a pattern. In the following verses, and many more, the words "thy seed" has been replaced with "your descendents:"

"And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations." (Gen 17:9 NKJV)

"blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."" (Gen 22:17-18 NKJV)

"Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father." (Gen 26:3 NKJV)

Suspiciously, they did not corrupt the corresponding New Testament verse, in what can reasonably be explained as an attempt to maintain some sort of credibility:

"Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ." (Gal 3:16 NKJV of 1982)

If you think I am being too hard on the translators of the New King James Version, those same translators also corrupted Daniel 9:27, which (surprise!) provides support to the weird "Gap Theory" of dispensationalism.

Just remember: the Church (the kingdom) will never be destroyed, nor swept away from the earth in some mysterious, unbiblical "rapture" of the Christians: which is another myth created by dispensationalists:

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" (Heb 12:28)

That, and this, are all you really need to know:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" (Eph 5:25 KJV)

But to ensure there is no misunderstanding: this is the Church in the new testament, which is located on heavenly mount Sion:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Hebrews 12:22-24)

It is also referenced in these verses:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” (1 Peter 2:5-8 )

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 9:31-33)

The Church also serves as the holy temple:

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

We see in these epistles the heavenly mount Sion is the location of the holy temple, which was built upon the foundation of the holy apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone of the holy temple, and with Christians forming part of the building and framework.

Other references to the holy temple in this context include:

". . . the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Cor 3:17)

"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven . . ." (Psalms 11:4)

"Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it. . ." (Psalms 127:1)

". . . Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

The last passage needs some clarification. David made it clear in Psalms 11:4 that the “Lord’s throne is in heaven.” Therefore, when the Lord “rules upon his throne” it is from his throne in heaven.

Note in the Zechariah passage that Jesus (the "Branch") builds the temple and rules from his throne, but also serves as a priest upon his throne, not in a temple. This clarifying statement from the Revelation refers to the holy city, New Jerusalem: the Church:

“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” (Rev 21:22)

There is no temple, other than a spiritual one. And recall these companion passages:

“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.” (Revelation 21:1)

“. . . ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (2 Corinthians 6:16)

Therefore, it is safe to conclude that both the Lord’s throne and holy temple are in heaven and his holy temple consists of, at least in part, you and me. The following two verses clarify Christ’s role as a priest:

"As [God] saith also in another place, Thou [Christ] art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." (Hebrews 5:6. The other place is Psalms 110:3)

Christ serves as High Priest in this manner:

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands. . ." (Hebrews 9:11)

Why would anything think that Christ would be supportive of another LESS PERFECT, earthly tabernacle, when he has become the high priest of good things to come?

There are some Church doctrines: for example, dispensationalism, that might cast aspersions on this interpretation: that it is too “spiritual,” or something to that effect. But recall that the children of Israel, who were, for the most part, carnally minded, and who were expecting an earthly kingdom and reign, rejected Christ: a rejection that was prophesied many times, and therefore was no surprise or afterthought. Israel paid a heavy price.

Paul explained the carnal vs spiritual mind:

“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” (Romans 8:6)

To be spiritual in understanding the scriptures is not the same as “spiritualizing” the scriptures, which would be best described as “making stuff up.” Paul explained that as well:

“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:12-14)

To dispel any notion that the Church was an afterthought--supposedly created only because the Jews rejected Christ: the chief cornerstone of the Holy Temple at heavenly Sion (Zion) was also prophesied by Isaiah, which was one of the references used earlier by Peter and Paul:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." (Isaiah 28:14-18)

That passage was also a warning to the leadership at Jerusalem to accept Christ, and not reject Him.

In Matthew 21:42 Jesus quoted David (below) who also prophesied that Jesus would become the chief cornerstone:

"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." (Psalms 118:22-23 )

And Isaiah wrote of the stumblingstone in another chapter:

"And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." (Isaiah 8:14)

Notice the “stumblingstone” serves both as a sanctuary for the just, and a snare for the wicked.

Anyway, the prophets described the Church in the same manner as the apostles referenced above.

So, please, don't believe any of that hogwash that the Church was an afterthought, or "Plan B." That pretense marginalizes the sacrifice of Christ, and is frankly an insult to Him, and to all who believe in Him and the Church.

Philip

>>>Mathew Henry was a Godly man who didn’t read nor write from a perspective of prophecy...His writing focus was on the life of the Christian in relationship to Jesus Christ...<<<

You asked for an explanation. There are many others with similar explanations. I, personally, believe all prophetic references to a "future" Jerusalem and Zion: future in the sense that they occur after the destruction of Jerusalem: are referring to this:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Hebrews 12:22-24)

Philp

>>>Like I said, Miller repented of his foolishness, you should also.<<<

You should repent of your foolishness. You are the one who follows a doctrine similar to that espoused by Miller, who, I agree, was a fool.

>>>Unfortunately, some of Miller's followers could not accept his repentance ... and they spawned off a movement that claimed exactly what you claim ... that the second coming has already happened, that Jesus is presently sitting on the throne of David ruling. You say 70AD, they say 1840-something ... no difference.<<<

That is hogwash. There is plenty of difference: my interpretation came directly from the unspiritualized words of Christ. Theirs, and yours, came from the spiritualized interpretations: that is, you have to "read into" the words (spritualize them) to come up with the nonsensical interpretation that you and the others espouse.

>>>Paul rebuked the Thessalonians for believing the day of the Lord had already come.<<<

That is another phony, deceitful dispensational redirection. It is written in their playbook of asperions, folks. Don't buy it for a minute.

Paul wrote his epistles prior to the FIRST RESURRECTION in A.D. 70. So, whoever believed that notion at the time Paul wrote his epistles was teaching a false doctrine, as are you, today, since the first resurrection has already past: but in A.D. 70, not 1840.

I look for the second resurrection, as described in Revelation 20:11-15. You should to:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:11-15 KJV)

>>>... you should listen to Paul ... not Gary DeMar.<<<

I sorta thought I did. I have never quoted Demar, to my knowledge; and I quote Paul in a large chuck of my posts: maybe half, or more. That sounds like sour grapes coming from you. It is sour grapes.

Philip

>>>What you may observe as “attitude” is actually a long history on my part when I see incomplete ideas asserted as complete and valid.<<<

Prove it. You certainly don’t think we should rely on your opinion, do you?

Philip

>>>You presented the case that you are a self study on eschatology and have no outside influencers. That leads me to believe you yourself are admitting your concept is not ready for prime time.<<<

Oh, I see: my doctrine needs to be thorougly corrupted with the heresies of dispensationalism and other non-biblical doctrines before they are ready for “prime time.”

Frankly, what you wrote is one the most bizarre “doctrines” I have read on this forum. But I will not discount it completely. I will run it by some of my 30-year (or more) retired military friends, and see if they agree with your interpretation. Don’t count on it.

Philip

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

You must have missed it...There are two covenants with Abraham...

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." (Isaiah 28:14-18)

OK...There are over 300 prophecies of Jesus Christ the Messiah in the OT...This is one of them...It has nothing to do with the church but has to do with the Kingdom...The physical kingdom...

So, please, don't believe any of that hogwash that the Church was an afterthought, or "Plan B." That pretense marginalizes the sacrifice of Christ, and is frankly an insult to Him, and to all who believe in Him and the Church.

The Old Testament is written prophetically about the Jewish Kingdom...The physical kingdom...The 'church' wasn't revealed to any OT prophets...

>>>Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

You must have missed it...There are two covenants with Abraham...

No, I didn't miss it. If you will take off your blinders when you read this, you will understand:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Note the plural, PROMISES! It is also important to understand that I am not relying solely on that verse for my interpretation. I will expound the verse you presented, Gen 15:18. Read carefully:

"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." (Num 33:51-53 KJV)

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." (Num 33:55-56 KJV)

"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." (Deu 8:19-20 KJV)

That was not a threat: that was a promise; and that is exactly what happened.

Philip

>>>(Isaiah 28:14-18) There are over 300 prophecies of Jesus Christ the Messiah in the OT...This is one of them...It has nothing to do with the church but has to do with the Kingdom...The physical kingdom...<<<

There is no physical kingdom, other than the one we are living in right now; and you cannot prove otherwise without spiritualizing the scriptures. Jesus and his servants rule over this kingdom from their thrones in heaven.

Philip

You should repent of your foolishness. You are the one who follows a doctrine similar to that espoused by Miller, who, I agree, was a fool.

It is clear you do not even know what Miller taught, or you merely ignore it because you know it hits home. He taught exactly what you do ... only he believed Christ would came back in 1840 ... when He didn't, he said oops ... "I was off by a year" ... then when He didn't come back in 1841, he repented. Since his followers refused to repent, they made the claim that Jesus DID come back in 1841, but not visibly, not literally, He came back in another form, spiritually ... and He is currently ruling in the Davidic sense.

The only difference between their belief and yours ... is the particular year the second coming happened.

The Bible teaches, both in the OT and the NT, that the second coming of Jesus Christ will be literal, visible, earthly, and global.

But we have gotten a long way off from the point of the article posted. The article posted shows that the early church rejects your view. The overwhelming majority of Biblical scholars reject your view ... and so do I.

Why do I reject it? ... because there is not a shred of Biblical or historic evidence for it.

>>>The Old Testament is written prophetically about the Jewish Kingdom...The physical kingdom...The 'church' wasn't revealed to any OT prophets...<<<

Wrong on the first point: there is no "Jewish" kingdom; only the kingdom of God/heaven, for both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ, as explained earlier in this thread.

Think about it: how could the nations be blessed, as promised to Abraham, if the kingdom had been retained the Jews. We were also a relatively closed, self-serving race; and most Jews still retain the tendency to be culturally closed or isolated. I know most of my relatives are like that.

You are most likely right about the old testament prophets. Not a lot was revealed to them; and for good reason. The Jewish leadership killed those who disagreed with their own, self-serving interpretations. As aforementioned, even Daniel expressed his ignorance of what the angel revealed to him. And Jesus, himself, said:

"For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." (Mat 13:17)

"For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." (Luke 10:24)

You, yourself, quoted Mat 13:17 in an earlier post, out of context, and pretended it supported your position. You also pretended you understood the OT prophecy, which I discarded as misguided foolishness, or arrogance, or whatever, since you have discounted mount Zion in OT prophecy as the home of the Lord and the Church.

The Church, which was created for the Jews and Gentiles, is located spiritually on heavenly mount Zion, and was most certainly mentioned in the Old Testament in many, many places. Those who believe in Christ will see it. The others are blinded.

Philip

There is no physical kingdom, other than the one we are living in right now; and you cannot prove otherwise without spiritualizing the scriptures. Jesus and his servants rule over this kingdom from their thrones in heaven.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

I believe there's enough proof that this hasn't happened yet...