Posted on 03/16/2014 6:46:27 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
How about this one.
2 Peter 3: 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[b] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.[c] 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
>>>How about this one. 2 Peter 3: 7<<<
It is all imagery, xone: like one would see in a vision or a dream; or one received directly from the Holy Ghost. See my posts #14 and #17.
Philip
>>>It really doesn’t sound like we just tick away, generation after generation, on into the future.<<<
You could start by explaining the statement by the Preacher, the Son of David, in Eccl 1:4. That is one hard nut to crack, for me.
Philip -:)
1. Current corrupted earth, ruled by the god of this age, full of wickedness
2. Reign of the beast, given power for 42 months
3. Conquer of earth by Christ, wicked trampled on (Isa 63:1-6), the Day of the LORD, mentioned numerous times throughout the OT & NT
4. Israel will bury the dead for 7 months(!), and will continually find bones after that (Isaiah 39:11-15)
5. Satan will be bound (Rev 20:1-3), and Jesus will reign on earth 1000 years(Rev 20:4-6)
6. There will be unprecedented peace on earth, and carnivorous behavior of animal will cease (Isaiah 11) It is plausible that God creates a new heavens and earth at this point (Isa 65:17-24), but populates it with unregenerate people who survived his second coming. They live in peace and prosperity under Christ, who rules them with an iron rod (Psalm 2:8-9)People will have prolonged lives during this time (Isa 65:20-24, and it will be Utopia.
7. NEVERTHELESS, when Satan is loosed after the 1000 years (Rev 20:7), unregenerate man gathers under his banner to oppose God once more
8. Satan is defeated, and cast into the Lake of Fire, forever. Every unregenerate person is killed. (Rev 20:9)
9. All mankind that was not part of the first resurrection in Rev 20:6 are raised to be judged. No sinful being remains outside of the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)
10. Jesus makes EVERYTHING new {again?}(Rev 21:5), and there will be no more death.(Rev 21:4).
11. The redeemed live FOREVER in paradise regained, and of the increase of his government and peace, there shall be no end (Isa 9:7).
Amen!
PS: I am neither dispensationalist or pre-tribulational, but am definitely pre-millenial
Don't know their theology, but they are right about this.
Haunting words from the (Gnostic) Gospel of Thomas, Earth born of meteoric bombardment.
Not no floods, but that he would not destroy mankind again with a flood.
“except a certain group stole that symbol”
Perhaps they are nervous because they know they are wicked and worried that God will forget his promise which is why they are waving it around so much, wanting always to remind him!
Eccl 1:4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.
The earth will not be completely consumed by the cleansing fire, rather, it will be laid bare, and all trace of sinful man: polution, corruption, disease, etc. will be destroyed by fire.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
See also Isaiah 24.
I can find no verse or reference that claims God will completely annihilate the earth. The heavens, yes, but not the earth.
I never thought about it that way, you might have a point!
I take the new heaven and new earth to be literal, but beyond our comprehension. Heaven and earth are one. God wants us to live with Him and therefore is creating that place. The evil ones in Rev 22 being outside the city is interesting but since all of our knowledge of life (physics, history, chemistry) will be useless there I don’t have to spend time thinking about it. It is too far outside the box for us to even imagine and we see things through a veil. I go for peace to thinking about when Jesus rules the world. That is super nice. the new Heaven/earth is too exciting and overwhelming for me. It doesn’t calm me down. LOL
I think it is literal, and an amazing description of a type of thermonuclear event:
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (2 Peter 3:10-11)
Which also was amazingly foretold even earlier:
And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. (Zechariah 14:12)
Have a God night.
I'm not a pre-millennialist, Jimmy. I am a post-millennialist. But I do I believe most of the list you posted was fulfilled by 70 AD, when Jesus sent the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem, Israel and Judaism (that is, the old Mosaic structure.) I will explain:
1. 1. Current corrupted earth, ruled by the god of this age, full of wickedness
That was Jerusalem, or the Rulers of Jerusalem:
"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. ." (Isa 28:14-18 KJV)
2. Reign of the beast, given power for 42 months
Actually, what is written is the following. First, it says the beast had power over the entire world, and he made war with the saints. Also, he really did think he was god. Second, it says he was given power to "continue" for forty and two months:
"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." (Rev 13:6-7 KJV)
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (Rev 13:5 KJV)
That defines Nero, the emperor of the Roman Empire, to the letter. He ruled what was considered the whole world, at that time (Luke 2:1.) His persecution of the saints (which was horrendous) lasted 3 1/2 years, or forty and two months, until he committed suicide in 68 AD. He also had Paul and Peter put to death, who some believe were the two witnesses:
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." (Rev 11:7 KJV)
3. Conquer of earth by Christ, wicked trampled on (Isa 63:1-6), the Day of the LORD, mentioned numerous times throughout the OT & NT.
It all centers around the destruction of Jerusalem and Judaism in 70 AD. That prophecy began with Moses in Deuteronomy 28, in which he devoted most of the chapter.
4. Israel will bury the dead for 7 months(!), and will continually find bones after that (Isaiah 39:11-15)
Over 1.1 million were killed or starved to death inside Jerusalem. No one buried them. That was the "great feast," mentioned in the Revelation, to which all the "fowls" were invited:
"And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away." (Deu 28:26 KJV)
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;" (Rev 19:17 KJV)
There is also this passage from Jeremiah that seems to fit; but I have not completely researched it:
"And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof." (Jer 19:7-8 KJV)
5. Satan will be bound (Rev 20:1-3), and Jesus will reign on earth 1000 years(Rev 20:4-6)
There is no evidence that Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years. But I believe he was reigning for "1000 years" (more like 1900 years) before Satan was loosed out of his prison. I believe Satan is free now, and has been for about a century.
6. There will be unprecedented peace on earth, and carnivorous behavior of animal will cease (Isaiah 11) It is plausible that God creates a new heavens and earth at this point (Isa 65:17-24), but populates it with unregenerate people who survived his second coming. They live in peace and prosperity under Christ, who rules them with an iron rod (Psalm 2:8-9)People will have prolonged lives during this time (Isa 65:20-24, and it will be Utopia.
I don't believe any of that interpretation. I believe Jesus' reign began, officially, exactly when he said it would, in 70 AD when he came with his holy angels:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" (Mat 25:31)
7. NEVERTHELESS, when Satan is loosed after the 1000 years (Rev 20:7), unregenerate man gathers under his banner to oppose God once more.
As aforementioned, I believe Satan is on the loose now, and has been for a long time. Look at the mess he has made to our cultures and societies in only the past 100 years--most in the past 50 years!
8. Satan is defeated, and cast into the Lake of Fire, forever. Every unregenerate person is killed. (Rev 20:9)
I believe exactly what it says in Revelation 20. In a nutshell, Satan is defeated, and all the dead stand before Christ and are judged. Death is the last enemy destroyed.
9. All mankind that was not part of the first resurrection in Rev 20:6 are raised to be judged. No sinful being remains outside of the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)
I believe that part, but maybe in a different context than you.
10. Jesus makes EVERYTHING new {again?}(Rev 21:5), and there will be no more death.(Rev 21:4).
I believe that life will go on as it always has, but without the destructive force of Satan. For that reason, the nations are able to heal, as stated in Revelation 22:2, which I included in the original post of this thread.
11. The redeemed live FOREVER in paradise regained, and of the increase of his government and peace, there shall be no end (Isa 9:7).
That I believe, except that Ecclesiastes 1:4 also applies.
Amen!
Back at ya!
Philip
>>>Jesus did baptize with the fire of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, No indication Peter was speaking figuratively. <<<
You don’t consider this evidence:
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:17 KJV)
Philip
>>>Haunting words from the (Gnostic) Gospel of Thomas, Earth born of meteoric bombardment.<<<
That seems familiar. I might have read it at one time, but I don’t recall. I have browsed the apocrypha from time to time.
Philip
I believe Isaiah had a tendency to consider Israel, and even Jerusalem, as "the earth." Did you read on into 25?
"For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built." (Isa 25:2 KJV)"
Philip
I used to believe that way. But one verse (or two) always came back at me.:
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Rev 22:2 KJV)
When I finally got around to reading the Old Testament, everything started to fall into place (and are still falling…LOL!)
>>>Heaven and earth are one. God wants us to live with Him and therefore is creating that place.<<<
I believe it is (they are) already created. Notice the present tense in the following passages:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)
"Now therefore [Jews and Gentiles,] ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22 KJV)
>>>The evil ones in Rev 22 being outside the city is interesting but since all of our knowledge of life (physics, history, chemistry) will be useless there I don’t have to spend time thinking about it. <<<
Yes, but we have to live with them until Satan is defeated.
>>>It is too far outside the box for us to even imagine and we see things through a veil.<<<
I agree with that.
>>>I go for peace to thinking about when Jesus rules the world.<<<
I believe he already rules, but is more of a benevolent type. He will, however intervene and destroy Satan (soon, I hope)
>>>That is super nice. the new Heaven/earth is too exciting and overwhelming for me. It doesn’t calm me down. LOL<<<
How about this earth, with all evil under the feet of the Lord? I figure that if God loves the world so much he sent his only Son to die on the cross to save it, who am I to complain about living on this earth? I, personally, like this place. I have no desire to go anywhere else. If I do, I hope it is New Jerusalem.
Philip
This really is one of the most clueless comments regarding God's Plan for all eternity.
God allows for the regeneration of the human spirit by His grace in this age/generation when He observes us exercising faith in Him. Those who do not have a rgenerated human spirit, do not have an 'evil spirit' in their anthropology. That is why they think of spirituality as foolishness,....they don't have it to perceive the spiritual domain.
From the Garden, man now has the knowledge of good and evil, but we have indeed died spiritually as a consequence of that action.
The first panacea used by unbelievers is to substitute good and evil for righteousness.
>>>And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. (Zechariah 14:12)<<<
I guess I am more the optimist. I would prefer all come to repentance.
Your interpretation does not bode well for the Jews. I cannot imagine anyone with even half-a-heart being excited about fulfillment via your interpretation.
Philip
1. Josephus does not mention the sun going dark or the moon turning red or any falling stars in his first hand account of the destruction of Jerusalem. (If you have not read it, I highly suggest it!)
2. Irenaeus place the authorship of Revelation well after the destruction of Jerusalem, around 95 AD
3. Regardless of Revelation's dating, you have to dismiss most of Revelation as allegorical or whatever, ignoring the plain reading of many of it's passages, like all inhabitants of the earth worshipping the beast, his calling fire down from heaven, the mark, 7 bowls and 7 trumpet, etc.
4. Rev 20 uses the phrase "1000 years" 5 times in 7 verses. That's a lot of repetition of a precise number to be cast off as non-specific or general
5. Rev 21:4 plainly states "there will be no more death...for the old order of things has passed away". Generations can't "come and go" unless someone is dying. Blatant, inescapable, fatal contradiction.
6. Zephaniah, in reference to the great Day of the LORD (1:14) states in verse 18 "In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.
7. Ecc 1:4 states "Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. This does not state that generations will come and go forever, only that the earth remains forever. I would not hang a doctrine of eternal cycle of life and death on that verse!
FWIW, I have considered both "post" and "a" millenial, and find they contradict too much plain reading of scripture to be viable.
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