I know about most aspects of dispensationalism. I know that two time-related interpretations are critical for the survival of dispensationalism as a viable Christian doctrine:
1) The book of the Revelation has to have been written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
2) The words "this generation" in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 must be interpreted to mean a generation far into the future from the time when those words were spoken by Christ to his disciples.
>>>For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)<<<
I have quoted this passage many times. Three things are noticeable in this passage:
1) the first three verses (13-15, not shown) along with the last verse, demonstrate that Paul was trying to comfort some of the faithful who had lost loved ones. He left out the part about those being resurrected at the same time to damnation, probably as a sign of respect to those faithful. The same event written by Daniel, shows the proper context:
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)
In summary, the resurrection was only for Daniel's people (the children of Israel;) not all were resurrected (many vs all;) and some were not saved.
2. Paul's words demonstrate that he seemed to believe he might still be alive at the time of the resurrection. Of course, all the apostles wrote as if they were expecting an imminent resurrection.
3. The people of the resurrection never return to earth, but are forever with the Lord in the air, according to Paul's statement.
>>>And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14-15)<<<
Moses spoke of a similar event with the 10,000 saints:
"And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them." (Deut 33:2)
Jesus came with his holy angels for the first resurrection (Matt 24:31.)
>>>And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Revelation 19:19)<<<
All of that is highly symbolic; for example, we see the armies are still in heaven. Many believe the beast was Nero, who made literal war with the saints for forty and two months before committing suicide in 68 AD. He also is credited with putting Paul and Peter to death, who some believe were the two witnesses. Since the Lord used the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem, those in 19:19 were most likely the Jewish armies, and the Jewish leadership.
>>>Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)<<<
Those were resurrected around 70 AD, in the exact generation Christ said they would be. That is also the resurrection in Daniel 12.
>>>If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)<<<
All the apostles believed that would happen to them; and I believe that is exactly what happened to them. I know for certain the 12 disciples were given 12 thrones from which to judge the 12 tribes of Israel (Mat 19:28, Luke 22:29-30, Rev 20:4)
>>>And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27)<<<
I believe that was the destiny of all the elect: the participates in the first resurrection. You can include the 12 disciples in that mix.
>>>And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (Zechariah 14:17)<<<
Jerusalem in that context is New Jerusalem: the Church. Those fighting against New Jerusalem in verses 2-3 include those who say they are Jews, and are not. Only those of Israeli descent who were circumcised in the spirit were considered Jews. Verse 8 is a parallel passage to Rev 22:1, which began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Jesus confirmed this in the Gospel of John:
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39 KJV)
>>>I also see the remaining elative remnant of Jews turning to the Lord as Rm. 11 foretells, when the fullness of the Gentiles be entered in, and preaching judgment during the Trib. and serving the Lord during His 1k reign. Which is where the Temple of Ezekiel comes in, and the memorial sacrifices.<<<
Those of Roman's 11:26 were the remnant, who were all resurrected in 70 AD (Jesus said he lost none, but the son of perdition.)
The temple of Ezekiel has generated many different interpretations; but I doubt anyone really understands the prophecy. I personally believe it references, in part, the specs of the original temple (which Israel was too impoverished to rebuild to spec;) but also in certain ways, such as in Chapter 47, the Church: the New Jerusalem, from which flow the living waters. But about the only thing I am fairly certain about in chapters 40-48 is the seriousness of these warning by the Lord:
"And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever." (Eze 43:7-9)
"And the Lord said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the Lord, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary. And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves." (Eze 44:5-8)
>>>Then comes the end, when the devil is loosed, and those who in heart did not want Christ to rule over them will fight against the Lord and the camp of the saints, and shall be toasted. (Rv. 20:7-9)<<<
LOL! Something like that, but I don't consider it the end, but a new beginning where everyone lives happily ever after, from one generation to the next.
>>>As this is prophecy, how you see this is not a salvific matter, though some make it one, and make it their main focus. And i have friends whose replacement theology is driven by some animus against the established evangelical church.<<<
They probably had encounters with a less-than-cordial dispensationalist one too many times.
Philip
Hey Phil a little intel for you. Daniel1212 is not a dispensationalist. If you read his post you would realize that.
That is forcing the text to conform to your eschatology, whereas there is 1k years difference btwn "the first resurrection" - the resurrection of life” and the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:29a)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
And when the thousand years are expired...the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Revelation 20:7,14)
and at that time thy people... shall be delivered ...the resurrection was only for Daniel's people (the children of Israel;) not all were resurrected (many vs all;) and some were not saved.
First you have all "being resurrected at the same time" but now you have two resurrections.
"Daniel's people" are NT saints, obviously, and he give a general statement, whereas the NT provides more detail. .
Paul's words demonstrate that he seemed to believe he might still be alive at the time of the resurrection.
He does hope for that.
The people of the resurrection never return to earth, but are forever with the Lord in the air, according to Paul's statement. That is not what the text says, and is actually contrary to it, as it dos not say "forever with the Lord in the air," but shall be "forever with the Lord." (1Thes. 4:17) [No purgatory here.]
And if the Lord is going to war at the BoA, then they will be with Him, as Rv. 19 and Jude speaks of, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Jude. 1:14,15; Revelation 19:14)
Moses spoke of a similar event with the 10,000 saints:
Certainly. We have precursors to the real deal.
Jesus came with his holy angels for the first resurrection (Matt 24:31.)
Then the church missed it, while the 2nd coming was rather ant-climatic! For one, the saints receive their crowns at one event, the judgment seat of Christ, (2Cor. 5:10) which is at the Lord's coming, and awaits the salvation of the last elect, and death of the last to be damned, rather than being an on going event starting in 70 AD. (1Cor. 3:8ff; 2Tim. 4:1,8)
If the Lord has already come then we no longer need to be intent on obeying the Lord, "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"(1 Timothy 6:14)
For we are already like Him, having perfect revelation of Him.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:2-3)
And the devil has been bound, and there is no more sound of musicians or craftsman in Babylon, (Rv. 18:22; 20:2) etc. none of which honestly corresponds to reality. If anything, the devil is being given more reign on his leash, and is making more perverse music. Even in many churches!
gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Revelation 19:19)
All of that is highly symbolic; for example, we see the armies are still in heaven. Many believe the beast was Nero,
Symbolism gives way to reality in fulfillment, and i honestly see it as more than a real stretch to fit the world wide manifest calamities and the profound events that occur at the Lord's coming into 70AD!
>>>Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)<<<
Those were resurrected around 70 AD, in the exact generation Christ said they would be. That is also the resurrection in Daniel 12.
I cannot find that tenable, for the aforementioned reasons and more. No one has risen from the grave and been sentenced according to their works, which again is an event that awaits until all who would be damned have died. I appreciate the desire to make MT 24, which seems to drive preterism, conform to "this generation" versus the generation that sees that event, or this people, but i presently see it as prophetic utterance in which v. 2 happened in 70AD but was another precursor to the real AoD standing in a yet future temple, wherer he ought not. And the rest fits into that scenario, answering the questions, "what the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Not simply the "Jewish world."
>>>If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)<<<
All the apostles believed that would happen to them; and I believe that is exactly what happened to them. I know for certain the 12 disciples were given 12 thrones from which to judge the 12 tribes of Israel (Mat 19:28, Luke 22:29-30, Rev 20:4)
Sorry, i cannot accept that either, as this is part of the GWT judgment, in which believers shall also judge angels. Which Jude also speaks of.
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (1 Corinthians 6:2)
And which occurs after the devil is bound and loosed, and all the wicked are destroyed:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:.... And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened...(Revelation 20:4,12)
It has not happened yet no matter how much it is spiritualized.
>>>And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (Zechariah 14:17)<<<
Jerusalem in that context is New Jerusalem: the Church. Frankly to relegate this along with the very extensive and detailed description of Ezekiel of the end times and future temple to simply being symbolic of the church and 70 AD is beyond what is reasonable, and imugns the prophetic nature of Scripture itself.
I see it as more akin to what Jews engage in when explaining the prophecies of the Messiah as not speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ.
out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
And so this is what the Egyptians missed out on by not coming to the church feast of tabernacles. The Catholics would love this, but these those that are left of all the nations after the Lord smites all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. (Zech. 14:12,16) Analogies can be made but for me this speaks too clearly literal and as a future event.
Those of Roman's 11:26 were the remnant, who were all resurrected in 70 AD (Jesus said he lost none, but the son of perdition.)
No one was bodily resurrected in 70 and crowned already and judging angels, unless we want to sound more like so-called Christian Scientists . Here Rm. 11 is all about God judicially blinding the natural branches, beloved for the father's sake despite being enemies of the "Israel of God," believers, until the fulness of the Gentiles be entered in, after which the curse is removed and all Israel, both the believing natural branches and the Gentile believers, shall be saved.
The temple of Ezekiel has generated many different interpretations; but I doubt anyone really understands the prophecy. I personally believe it references, in part, the specs of the original temple (which Israel was too impoverished to rebuild to spec;)
The blueprint is said to be different, and it is far to extensive and literally detailed to simply be spiritualized as all referring to the church.
>>>Then comes the end, when the devil is loosed, and those who in heart did not want Christ to rule over them will fight against the Lord and the camp of the saints, and shall be toasted. (Rv. 20:7-9)<<<
LOL! Something like that, but I don't consider it the end, but a new beginning where everyone lives happily ever after, from one generation to the next.
No laughing matter really, while with the preterist hermeneutic it is hard to say anything can speak of the beginning or the end after 70AD. If this here is allowed to be seen as a yet future event, then that which it is tied to honestly is also.
Have a God night.