Presently I see the NT saints resurrected at the end of the Trib, meet the Lord in the air and with Him as making up the armies fight in the Battle of Armageddon, and rule under Christ during His 1k reign, who rules with a rod of iron over some souls of people groups, as a test under a government when the devil is not tempting them and Christ reigns.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14-15)
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Revelation 19:19)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27)
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (Zechariah 14:17)
I also see the remaining elative remnant of Jews turning to the Lord as Rm. 11 foretells, when the fullness of the Gentiles be entered in, and preaching judgment during the Trib. and serving the Lord during His 1k reign. Which is where the Temple of Ezekiel comes in, and the memorial sacrifices.
Then comes the end, when the devil is loosed, and those who in heart did not want Christ to rule over them will fight against the Lord and the camp of the saints, and shall be toasted. (Rv. 20:7-9)
As this is prophecy, how you see this is not a salvific matter, though some make it one, and make it their main focus. And i have friends whose replacement theology is driven by some animus against the established evangelical church .
100% agreement with your last post. All of it.
I know about most aspects of dispensationalism. I know that two time-related interpretations are critical for the survival of dispensationalism as a viable Christian doctrine:
1) The book of the Revelation has to have been written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
2) The words "this generation" in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 must be interpreted to mean a generation far into the future from the time when those words were spoken by Christ to his disciples.
>>>For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)<<<
I have quoted this passage many times. Three things are noticeable in this passage:
1) the first three verses (13-15, not shown) along with the last verse, demonstrate that Paul was trying to comfort some of the faithful who had lost loved ones. He left out the part about those being resurrected at the same time to damnation, probably as a sign of respect to those faithful. The same event written by Daniel, shows the proper context:
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)
In summary, the resurrection was only for Daniel's people (the children of Israel;) not all were resurrected (many vs all;) and some were not saved.
2. Paul's words demonstrate that he seemed to believe he might still be alive at the time of the resurrection. Of course, all the apostles wrote as if they were expecting an imminent resurrection.
3. The people of the resurrection never return to earth, but are forever with the Lord in the air, according to Paul's statement.
>>>And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14-15)<<<
Moses spoke of a similar event with the 10,000 saints:
"And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them." (Deut 33:2)
Jesus came with his holy angels for the first resurrection (Matt 24:31.)
>>>And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Revelation 19:19)<<<
All of that is highly symbolic; for example, we see the armies are still in heaven. Many believe the beast was Nero, who made literal war with the saints for forty and two months before committing suicide in 68 AD. He also is credited with putting Paul and Peter to death, who some believe were the two witnesses. Since the Lord used the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem, those in 19:19 were most likely the Jewish armies, and the Jewish leadership.
>>>Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)<<<
Those were resurrected around 70 AD, in the exact generation Christ said they would be. That is also the resurrection in Daniel 12.
>>>If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)<<<
All the apostles believed that would happen to them; and I believe that is exactly what happened to them. I know for certain the 12 disciples were given 12 thrones from which to judge the 12 tribes of Israel (Mat 19:28, Luke 22:29-30, Rev 20:4)
>>>And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27)<<<
I believe that was the destiny of all the elect: the participates in the first resurrection. You can include the 12 disciples in that mix.
>>>And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (Zechariah 14:17)<<<
Jerusalem in that context is New Jerusalem: the Church. Those fighting against New Jerusalem in verses 2-3 include those who say they are Jews, and are not. Only those of Israeli descent who were circumcised in the spirit were considered Jews. Verse 8 is a parallel passage to Rev 22:1, which began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Jesus confirmed this in the Gospel of John:
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39 KJV)
>>>I also see the remaining elative remnant of Jews turning to the Lord as Rm. 11 foretells, when the fullness of the Gentiles be entered in, and preaching judgment during the Trib. and serving the Lord during His 1k reign. Which is where the Temple of Ezekiel comes in, and the memorial sacrifices.<<<
Those of Roman's 11:26 were the remnant, who were all resurrected in 70 AD (Jesus said he lost none, but the son of perdition.)
The temple of Ezekiel has generated many different interpretations; but I doubt anyone really understands the prophecy. I personally believe it references, in part, the specs of the original temple (which Israel was too impoverished to rebuild to spec;) but also in certain ways, such as in Chapter 47, the Church: the New Jerusalem, from which flow the living waters. But about the only thing I am fairly certain about in chapters 40-48 is the seriousness of these warning by the Lord:
"And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever." (Eze 43:7-9)
"And the Lord said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the Lord, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary. And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves." (Eze 44:5-8)
>>>Then comes the end, when the devil is loosed, and those who in heart did not want Christ to rule over them will fight against the Lord and the camp of the saints, and shall be toasted. (Rv. 20:7-9)<<<
LOL! Something like that, but I don't consider it the end, but a new beginning where everyone lives happily ever after, from one generation to the next.
>>>As this is prophecy, how you see this is not a salvific matter, though some make it one, and make it their main focus. And i have friends whose replacement theology is driven by some animus against the established evangelical church.<<<
They probably had encounters with a less-than-cordial dispensationalist one too many times.
Philip